And they are basically top DPS, they just share the role.
“To be on top of DPS”. Exact words from the OP. Please read.
I said the top with a few other classes. That’s different from the bottom third of viable classes without a legendary.
I never suggested any balancing, I’m only saying that it’s understandable for warrior’s to feel burned and saying essentially warrior’s are crying and entitled because they aren’t the very top spot is ridiculous.
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Ok, so warriors are upset they aren’t on top with other classes. I’m not sure why you felt the need to include this last portion but there we go. So essentially, this is still about warriors being on top.
That’s just not true at all. Like, none of it. First of all, Ret was right in line with fury and then was overtaken in p2. There were MASSIVE threads of Rets asking for buffs, all over the forum. People who aren’t very bright made the same argument you are making now about rets then. That Ret players complain more than others, it was very weird then and still is now. Secondly There were also threads about Ferals have the most difficult rotation and needing buffs. You clearly were not reading the forums if you missed these. Thirdly, when those two classes were buffed, Fury was used as the “Floor” what they wanted to be the bottom limit for DPS, that’s when we started seeing Warriors complaining for the first time and to be fair they were particularly deranged in the buffs that were being asked for. You are completely incorrect though and if you look up ANY of the Rets now complaining about warrior’s post history to back in Jan/Feb you will see every last one was on the forums asking for buffs.
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Nah dude. Been here since TBC. I just swapped posting toon. But i’m not like Snipy or Bloomsday or anything. Just other guy with 1k post count.
This is why shared account post history is needed >.>
But either way, no really asked for Ferals to be changed. During Wrath PTR, people have pointed out how OoC procs were lower, hence lowering Feral’s potential and there were some posts about Bear’s threat.
When it comes to Ret, eh, a few? At best. Everyone sorta knew that Rets suck until T10 2P and are a midpack end game.
Warriors been kinda at it since day 1 though. Never happy. They were S-tier for past 2 xpacs.
Now, don’t get me wrong. I’m not against PvE tuning by all means. I’m more of a #MoreChanges type of guy myself.
I’d love for more tuning to happen here and there. But warriors man. They crack me up. I play C-tier heal spec myself as my main. But I knew that from day 1 of going into Wrath.
They have selective memory, you’re not going to make headway stating facts and being reasonable.
Alright man.
Fire mage > fury warrior.
If you didnt pass middle school math, engaging in debates about scaling math is not going to end well.
Think of it this way. If a warrior is at 4k and a rogue is at 6k, and they both get a bunch of gear that makes warrior 6k and rogue 8k, they scaled parallel. They both going 2000 dps. Meaning, for their weapons, trinkets, helmet, etc, they got the same exact damage. The warrior will never pass the rogue. If the warrior now was doing 104k dps and the rogue was doing 106k dps, they rogue is still doing 2k more dps. They both gained 100k dps. The warrior is still behind, because they are scaling parallel. They have the same scaling.
The issue you don’t understand is that because the warrior started lower than the rogue, that foundational base being lower is making you think the warrior got more dps. He didnt. He got the same amount of dps from gearing up and “scaling.” The warrior’s problem is that is started lower than the rogue therefore adding 2k dps represents a larger portion of the warrior’s base damage.
Base damage is NOT relevant to scaling. It only matters for consideration because if you look at how hard something scales, you can then add that to its base dmg to see if the class will compete later on. The base damage itself is unrelated to scaling. Scaling comes from the added dps. If both classes add the same DPS, they scaled the same. They grew the same amount. If you have 2 plants, and they both grow 10 feet per year, they have the same scaling. But if plant A was 5 feet shorter at the start, it will always be 5 ft shorter if theyre both growing the same amount per year.
The warrior will NEVER pass the rogue with parallel scaling.
We dont have perfect parallel scaling. In phase 2, rogue gained more dps than warrior. In phase 4, for the same ilvl increase, maybe the warrior does I havent looked at the chart in a while.
The topic of “perfect parallel scaling” came up because some people didn’t know what it meant. We dont have perfect parallel scaling. Some phases, other classes got more than warriors. That same phase, warrior got some more than others. You’ll generally find that the top classes in phase 1 didnt have the best scaling but still scaled very well and by ICC still hold their place or are extremely close to it.
The main point is there was NO “you scale hard.” Warriors dont go from last to first. They go from last to maybe middle of the pack, or bottom middle. Add in a legendary that adds 1k dps to anyone that has it that other classes dont have a chance to get this phase and it bumps it up more but not many ppl will get this item and its better to understand where youll be w/ a heroic LK 284 weapon. With the legendary warrior will still be in the middle pack but on the upper end of it likely based on log stats to sim comparisons.
Ret was always going to be strong in phase 4 yet they gave it a 10% boost anyway. The problem with making Classic into Aggrends private server is now you have the class ranks all changed. With higher utility classes and higher represented classes now doing more dps you’ll continue to see the trend of 1 warrior (prot or fury) brought for commanding and not really many more in raids that care about composition.
When top raiding guilds bring 0 dps warriors to their runs in Ulduar, you know the class has problems.
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Don’t waste your time. That guy was asking for ret buffs then they got them and he immediately went back to asking for more buffs. When feral was buffed he started vying to have it reverted then went right back to asking for more ret buffs. He does not have the ability to critically think and no matter the logic used he will always come back to the same point. Just ignore him.
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uhh no hoss, that’s not how that works.
your dps increases exponentially with gear.
Create a scatter plot of ilvl & dps. Then apply a best fit line to said data. A curve would be best to approximates the trend on this scatter plot. The warrior would have a steeper curve, aka scale better.
OR just look at this
4000 - > 6000 50% increase
6000 → 8000 33% increase.
if you created 2 line segments. (0, 6000) (100, 8000) and (0,4000) (100,6000). These lines would be parallel, but that’s irrelevant. They gained the same flat amount of dps, but that’s not scaling. Scaling isn’t a static number, it’s a percentage. You didn’t scale 200 dps, you scaled 2%.
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He’s literally been told this repeatedly, he sticks to his idiotic “but muh 2k” thing.
Which isn’t what scaling is at all.
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OR just look at this
4000 - > 6000 50% increase
6000 → 8000 33% increase.
That is how you lie with statistics.
Frost mage: 2000 → 3000 = 50% increase.
Does this mean frost mage scale as hard as warrior?
Base DPS doesn’t matter. It’ll make it that any lower dps scale harder than higher dps.
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yes
scaling is typically represented as a percentage change rather than a static number. When discussing scaling, it often refers to increasing or decreasing a value by a certain percentage.
I think the point here that mathematically scaling is not necessarily the same as it’s ignoring a lot of the factors of how classes scale based on certain skills will scale. For instance Fire Mages and Crit or physical classes and Arp, that’s not scaling on ilvl but on certain stats. That being said, I don’t really know why you guys are arguing about this, seems pretty irrelevant but whatever.
And yet, you’ve passed the rogues on ICC sims without shadowmourne…
So the whole parallel scaling thing isn’t true, it never was. If it were, warriors would still be looking at being the worst DPS in the game, and not even shadowmourne would get them to a top tier status.
You basically looked at a singular raid tier, saw that the gap between warrior and the top DPS was still 2k, and assumed that was going to continue, when it doesn’t.
It also ignored what was happening with every other DPS spec, that didn’t all gain the same DPS as warrior on any tier jump. Fixating on what amount the absolute top dose is doing compared to warrior loses all sight of the fact that the class is becoming way more competitive.
Even if you ignore shadowmourne, warrior sims in icecrown narrowed the gap to the top to about 1.4k, and it’d be even smaller in ruby sanctum if not for the feral druid buff (which I have repeatedly agreed with being a mistake). If you include shadowmourne, the top possible warrior sims under 1k from the top in ICC, and has passed all but 2 specs in ruby sanctum.
There’s no reason to ignore shadowmourne here though, because your guild is guaranteed to get about 2 of them in icecrown, so unless you have a really off meta comp, the fury warriors will almost certainly get one.
And hell, even if everything was scaling in parallel as you assert (even though it isn’t), that’s not a problem because losing 2k dps when you have 280k raid DPS is waaay less noticeable when you lost 2k out of 144k raid DPS.
Really now? You are upset that warriors are at 16.5k DPS on top sims with shadowmourne, and 15.5k without it.
Without those ret buffs, our top sim would be at around 15k with shadowmourne, and not breaking 14k without it. That would put ret at the absolute worst DPS spec in the game unless they had a legendary weapon, which would bring them to bottom third. That’s not strong, and the utility ret brings absolutely does not justify that placement as you don’t need a ret to get any of it.
The big thing here is that you can’t just focus on what happens between two points. What matters is what happens if you go to the next data point (tier). If the Frost mage continues to get a 50% boost each time, then yeah, it would have better scaling than warrior, but the expansion might not last long enough for the scaling to overtake them.
Caster scaling is usually more linear than warriors just by virtue of having fewer multiplicative stats to stack. Armor penetration existing while casters don’t have an equivalent spell vulnerability stat is the main reason for that.
Warriors couldn’t get a lot of it in Ulduar, so their DPS gain looked pretty linear between the tier jumps, but they still improved their pole position on the meters. ToC had more of it, so warriors continued to move upwards. ICC starts to have amounts that really start to take off, and suddenly warriors are middle of the pack until their legendary is finished and they become top tier.
The gap to the top DPS is also noticeably shrinking for them over this tier jump, and gets smaller with ruby sanctum.
The only mistake with balance adjustments was feral druid. They should have kept the 5% damage nerf that they tried to hotfix in on the glyph they gave cats in ToC. It would drop their sim to about 16k DPS, which would still be in the top tier range, just not buffed to the undisputed best DPS.
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I always remember one of the lead deva for classic mains a paladin and that enough says everything ro me
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You should quote the people making the claim based on the two points here. I’m questioning their claim: that because a warrior earns 50% increase in one phase, they continue to do so.
Yeah, and there’s a lot of ignoring that not every tier gives each class the same amount of DPS going on.
It just strikes me as odd when I see warriors trying to claim that they didn’t scale when they went from the literal worst DPS in Naxx to one of the best when fully geared in ICC and Ruby Sanctum.
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