I don’t find BrM complicated but rather annoying compared to other tanks. Spec absolutely needed the pruning.
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I disagree. It’s not annoying or complicated to me. I like how the design may require players to main it to master it. It’s kind of how I feel about druids as a class, which is partly why I never got one to max.
Though this is just my opinion like the guy said.
I also always felt the fantasy of throwing literal kegs was strange, like if this was vanilla you’d have to keep a bunch of kegs in your bags LOL.
I’d rather there be more customization across the board than tweaks to classes/specs meant to create more accessibility. Changes should be meant to close gaps in output and defensives, or clever compensation for the gaps.
I’m not able to play in beta, but if pruning is done to increase accessibility or quality of life in respect to an opinion. That increases the likelihood of widening the gaps.
I’m not all upset about it yet, but I have to err on side with caution on this. Imagine if they removed ice block from fire and arcane mages and instead gave a passive, just for example. I’d rather fire mages get a glyph for iceblock instead as the coolness of it would be worth the extra button. Just my opinion.
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The but is what got you dawg
More buttons does not make a spec harder to play. The hardest spec in the history of WoW which used to be Feral druid was like 6 buttons but you had to;
Manage dots and debuffs
Manage energy
Maintain buffs
Know how to keep your dots 100% snapshotted.
This isn’t happening with BrM though
If you don’t have beta I suggest at the very least try playing the spec on 11.0 ptr before making post like this.
From what I tested in both raid and m+ on beta the spec feels a lot better to me to play compared to live. The same with WW and MW as well.
Why? I’ll just be corrected if I’m wrong, I don’t want to do extensive homework to make a forum post. Though I probably should have made a disclaimer or wtv saying how I hope I’m wrong about things. Either way, I’d rather make note of it before it goes too far. Like I said in OP there’s a scary record of Blizz removing things in their games and never bringing it back. So, I feel inclined to push back on it before it is actually bad, bad. Not saying it’s bad now obviously, I hope it’s good but yeah, it’s what I said in OP.
You did raise a good point. Managing dots, debuffs, buffs, energy may be the deciding factors on what makes a spec the hardest. I personally don’t have much of an issue managing these things as brew, so perhaps that’s why more buttons feel better to me.
However, I would not discount the number of abilities entirely to evaluate the level of difficulty or accessibility.
I’d rather have healing Elixer than a passive shield though, just saying.
There is a stark difference between pruning that causes things to feel bad to play vs what we got on beta currently. What is happening on TWW beta is not the same type of pruning specs got in WoD and Legion etc…
I am not going to argue over “subjective feelings” because the monk changes for the most part have had a positive response.
My biggest complaint so far is how bad shado-pan is for both WW and BrM currently. There is zero reason to run it over the alternative because flurry strikes is grossly undertuned.
Nothing got me. Someone who parses less than 10% at best and hasn’t done anything in raids above LFR isn’t in a position to speak about a class ceiling.
I’ve played a monk. I don’t and never have mained a monk. And while I’m free (just like anyone else) to have my opinions on how I think monk can and should play, people should question my opinions if I start intimating how the class should be designed regarding its ceiling. The fact you need this explained to you says a lot.
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I don’t like the judgement of the content I’ve done. The only reason I bothered to do LFR was due to questing. I only recently did M+ (on monk) because your comment.
I stand by my statements.
Pruning a bit is fine as long as other CDs are toggled to compensate so you have something impactful to press every GCD (or close to).
Brew’s problem right now is you have a massive amount of buttons to press in a specific order to get threat and then start mitigating damage. It’s just very much so a press these 10 things and THEN do your rotation.
Compare to warrior where I shield charge in (aoe threat and it procs a defensive), thunderclap (first GCD in melee range), ignore pain (second defensive off the GCD), and then I just do my normal rotationy things and I’ve only been in melee for a single swing timer.
Or compare to BDK, where I drop dnd from range, blood boil in melee, then heart strike 1-2 times before a death strike. It’s 3 melee globals to start my mitigation (assuming you go into the pull with bone shield which you should always be able to in a competent group setting).
On monk I’m precasting RJW, bonedust brew, and keg smash before I’m in melee range and the mobs get to me, then rolling black out kick/breath of fire for damage reduction, before recasting RJW, purifying stagger, maybe celestial brew, and then going for the keg CD, into SCK x2 for max damage to really get that snap threat. It’s just so many globals to get threat and defensives going comparatively. Monk is 3 globals on the pull, 4-5 globals in melee range.
It’s a lot…and it’s not fun for a lot of us. Some of that needs to be pruned so it’s a manageable kit. On top of the GCD problem, 2 of the abilities you want to use are ground targeted abilities you want to use before melee range.
This is really neither spec using an offensive ability yet either…
Even compare the offensive cooldowns and there is a huge delta. BDK gets DRW which gives you a whopping 40% parry and really amps up your damage throughput. Warrior can press avatar for a damage increase and damage reduction off the GCD, which also gives you more frequent thunderclaps. Both of those last over 10 seconds. The keg CD on BrM gives you 2 seconds of no melee damage? Maybe ox statue is a better analog, but he increases stagger. You still have to follow that up with a purify on your own. He’s not increasing all your damage by 20% either like avatar.
BrM was just super wonky in DF. It can be toned down and maintain its identity.
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I’m new to the game in general so obviously my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt, but:
More buttons =/= complexity. It just makes it busy; I’ve tried tanking with all of the classes (obviously in lower 1-70 content) but Brewmaster was hands down one of the busier ones. It wasn’t even complex - the rotation was doing more or less exactly what the other tanks did in terms of grabbing aggro and building mitigation, it just takes more buttons to do it.
That to me is not complex, and is the reason I never really bothered tanking on BM. By contrast, the WW combo system is a better example of ‘complexity’ - it doesn’t rely on button bloat but button sequencing / timing, which by my estimation is a much better approach if you want a more technical class.
Just a newbie’s 2 cents.
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How bout now?
I mean, my gut reaction is id prefer more buttons over the recent changes, maybe someone playing it can confirm it’s warranted for PvE as well as PvP… But yeah more buttons add more complexity to an extent.
Sorry if I didn’t explain it properly, I wasn’t suggesting it can’t add complexity because it certainly can. I just hope that they’re able to strike a good balance between number of necessary abilities and how those abilities interact with each other and personally, if they have to lean into one or the other, I hope it’s the latter.
Tuning is an entirely different discussion… Posts like this are exactly why the devs don’t interact on the class forums. You can’t even keep your complaints straight.
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Same. There’s a lot to consider, I just don’t want simplifying roles/specs to be the answer and it be praised/encouraged to the point that tanks become more and more like tank skins rather than separate classes.
The matter of what is the right amount of buttons or other things adding complexity branches out to not just monks or tanks, or tanking in content but every class in every form of content. After considering criticisms, I don’t think any of us are equipped to properly evaluate it without some form of bias and with only limited information and insight. If we all waited for the one who knew everything and was always right, nobody would come.
But with that said, there may be a healthy medium happening. Regardless of what I suspect, I will remain just as skeptical of what I suspect until I am willing to make a claim. At the end of the day I just want the game to get better but better isn’t even enough especially due to the first things…said.
all those tuning changes mean nothing when they buff stagger magic and armor. Net gain across the board
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BrM definitely came out ahead with the tank tuning.
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Changes seem way less impactful for brew than BDK and VDH.
Still, brew also benefits from the new orb affix because you can RoP, Leg Sweep, and Paralyzing touch to grab a huge chunk of that affix by yourself almost every time they’re up (assuming you don’t need those for the rest of the pulls). Very strong affix for brew at lower keys.
I want healing elixir, self heals and abilities more than stagger buffs.
Like I’m not super good at the game but I want the ability to sustain myself with active abilities and maintaining buffs etc, if I mess up I get punished and I can try to get better. I fear they are going to make it so tanks rotate a few defensives in obvious ways then if you wipe it’s on the healer and dmg entirely because you pushed the buttons just so there is less grief on the tank or something.
Also I am a solo player I recently tried M+ on this monk and got people who could not keep up, several times. I don’t have the luxury of getting vetted healers and dps. So I dislike the direction of the tank role personally. As of right now I can grind out a boss if it’s low enough before everyone dies.
That’s cool, but it won’t last. If brew ends up at the bottom I’d want my healing and brews to be buffed instead of stagger and passive buffs. Replacing healing elixir with a passive is sloppy imo.
Yeah I only care about M+ at the beginning of the xpac anyways. That’s how it was when I returned for DF. I have a fundamental problem with the direction of the brew design not the temporary viability it supposedly has in TWW in comparison to other tanks, for M+ or raid or PVP or delves or whatever else.
Speaking of delves… Are those why they are shafting tanks low key?
I think it’s because tanks are so far out of line in survival. I was trying to finish an NO 3 on my 480 BDK and I self sustained for over 2 minutes on the last boss. Conductive strike’s follow up move was hitting for like 800-900k?
Heals was straight up garbage and I did several pulls while he was running back because he was constantly dying to junk.
I don’t know much about BDK, but I am okay with reducing burst damage. I would expect consistent damage with minimal burst from a tank, but I wouldn’t expect that from an NPC that needs to be tanked. If there was an across-the-board change to the tank role, maybe it would be damage cap on elites or something…
Tanking is supposed to be a TANK… IMO, I guess. A beefy beatstick that faces dangers head-on while others need to be more cautious. I personally prefer the approach of Tanks being able to self-sustain and not rely on healers as much as the team. Like it makes sense compositionally that the tank would need 1/5th of the attention from a healer in a 5-man group.
I don’t think anyone was upset about tank self-sustain either, like players prefer it right? Like I didn’t see any tanks asking for less self-sustain previously, I didn’t see healers begging to heal the tank more either. I don’t like the direction. I don’t think people will like it as time progresses. The approach they’ll take to close gaps between tanks later on in attempt to retain this philosophy, will be kind of meh most likely. Would rather they leave that aspect alone.
I heard some people don’t use healers atm I think that’s cool. Most people do though, that’s what’s cool about it. To actually close that off that tactic in instanced content is strange. I’d rather see ways to make BM hunters have tank pets to replace tanks, than to force literally everyone to play the 1-3-1 ratio which only adds to the monotonous nature of grinding keys. I mean I never got up to 20+ on any character, but if I was going to sweat those, doing so without a healer would make me feel like I’m doing something nifty and less of a treadmill. IMO.
If I had suggested these tank changes people would list off a bunch of things better to do with that time, probably would have pointed at my M+ progression as an attempt to silence me along with a myriad of reasons as to why tanking in DF is good as is, with an “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” attitude (on and off forums).
Disclaimer/Edit: I’ll gladly eat crow if it pans out(haven’t dived into pre patch yet. Also, to be fair, the title is stop pruning brew not necessarily reverse changes. I think if these changes are good, then definitely stop pruning.