Stop asking for the Alliance to take dark turns or be the bad guys

Your idea of putting Suarfang and Baine and all them in Alliance tabards would have the exact opposite effect on the people of the Horde.

It would consolidate Sylvanas’ power as everyone else fell in line because they don’t know the backstory. All they see are their leaders abandoning them and joining a faction who has been killing them for 30 years.

4 Likes

That’s already the case, as seen in Baine’s rescue scenario.

1 Like

You say “fell in line,” I say “didn’t have the authority to challenge her becoming Warchief.” Lor’themar is a very different character from Cairne. He doesn’t make public outbursts. He plays the long game. Unfortunately, we get no more insight into what Lor’themar is thinking because he wasn’t in Legion aside from that cinematic where he doesn’t say a word. That’s a problem with Blizzard’s writing in general. They can’t handle writing for a cast this big so they sideline characters that absolutely should have been involved. Which means we have to fill in the blanks ourselves based on the information we do have.

And something is coming of it. It’s building up to Lor’themar siding against Sylvanas. I think you want instant gratification but it doesn’t always serve the story, especially one with a rigid patch my patch system like WoW’s.

Hello Mr. Strawman. Nice to meet you.

No, I never suggested I want the Alliance to go through anything similar to what we are going through. I’m very outspoken about hating the Horde’s story. There’s a huge difference between wanting to see more disagreements between Alliance leaders and wanting the Alliance to tear itself apart.

Sorry, but that’s not only extremely out of character for Saurfang, but also way less effective than sowing the seeds of dissent from within the Horde. If he shows up on the battlefield side by side with the Alliance, he’ll truly be a traitor and push more of the Horde into supporting Sylvanas against him.

It was an example of how two people can be good and still in conflict, not an example of a compelling story.

Look, I don’t have a problem with Genn choosing to support the Night Elves and thwarting Sylvanas’ plan. In fact, I like it because it generated conflict between Genn and Anduin. That’s the exact thing I want to see more of. I just hope it doesn’t get dropped without a resolution.

You seem really resistant to the idea that the Alliance story would be more interesting if they were portrayed more like actual people and disagreed more. Why?

2 Likes

No, they only say that the populace likes her and is behind her. There is a difference between a populace just liking their leader, and them seeing their heroes join the other side for no apparent reason and working to kill them.

3 Likes

Much like filling in the blanks for whatever’s happening with Tyrande and Kalimdor now.

I do want instant gratification. I’d rather not wait years without any story progression after someone losing their homes like Gnomes and Gilneans have. I do not think an absence of story is interesting. So I agree with you that this is a problem with Blizzard’s writing in general and not just a Night Elf problem.

Given the precedent set by Horde writing, I do not think you are taking into account that Blizzard writing has not shown there to be any difference between these two states.

Saurfang is literally seen in the Underhold fighting side by side with Jaina and Spy Master Shaw and killing Horde soldiers - one of which who screams about the Alliance coming to end the Horde.

Because actual people do not have to be particularly interesting. Case in point with the two friends and one promotion who stay friends. A possible story about how real people can behave that is compelling only to people who like good people being good.

1 Like

No one likes it. We make do with what we have. Blizzard only has so many resources and can only do so much at a time. We can all disagree with their decisions on how they allocate those resources, but we can’t fault them for being unable to do everything at once.

I hate the Burning of Teldrassil just as much as anyone. But instantly resolving it would mean it was pointless from a narrative standpoint. We have to wait for the pay off*.

*I have no expectation that said pay off will have been worth it or even the least bit satisfying to anyone involved. Prove me wrong, Blizzard.

This is actually fair. Blizzard has a habit of taking thing to the extremes and are probably incapable of writing minor disagreement and petty squabbling.

He didn’t plan to work with Jaina and Shaw, they just happened to show up. Yes, it’ll raise questions about his true loyalties that Sylvanas can spin, but it was a covert rescue mission that people can only learn about through rumors, and all the while Rokhan is spreading the word about Saurfang’s real loyalties. Showing up on the battlefield, openly attacking Horde forces will remove any doubt. Saurfang would truly be a traitor at that point, and that would only be to Sylvanas’ benefit.

All this just so the Alliance can have one more soldier with an axe on the battlefield? He’s far more effective as a symbol for change than as a combat unit.

WoW has bad writing. The characters aren’t complex enough to be anything close to interesting. I would like to see it improve. That means doing things that good stories do.

For example, one of my favorite shows: Avatar: The Last Airbender. No question, Aang, Katara, Sokka, and Toph are good people who love and support each other, all while helping people they meet on their journey to the best of their ability. But they have their shortcomings. They bicker; they fight, they get jealous and do things to hurt each other. That doesn’t mean they aren’t good people, but the story is better for showing us that side of them.

Of all the narrative problems in this game, I have to say the worst, to me. is how one-dimensional these characters have become. Sylvanas is a mustache twirling mastermind. No disrespect to her VO, but her lines are all delivered the same way with no variance or levels because Sylvanas has no depth.

The same is true of practically anyone. We only have a superficial view of the world because we never get close enough to our point of view characters to know them as anything but “Saviors of Azeroth”, “Defenders of Justice”, “War Heroes”, and “Dastardly Villains”. I want to know them as people. That means getting in close, watching them make mistakes and getting a little messy.

Honestly, this is why I think Saurfang is actually the best written character in WoW right now. He’s a screw up, but we are seeing the effect it has on him mentally and emotionally. Not to give Blizzard too much credit, though. His writing is still sloppy; everyone else is just worse.

3 Likes

This is my point. Saurfang coming to help the Night Elves to start atoning would be him as a symbol of change, a reason for the Alliance to see that the Horde is not only evil, and an outlet for any Horde citizens that don’t want to be lumped together with Sylvanas after what she did to Teldrassil.

The rest of your points in your last post I generally agree with.

3 Likes

It may very well come to that, but Saurfang needs time to lay down the ground work and get people to turn against Sylvanas in significant numbers. I know it’s too slow and it sucks, and the Night Elf fans are left hanging the whole time. It doesn’t feel good and I sympathize. It’s just the course Blizzard has chosen and all we can do is see where it goes.

1 Like

Okay, that is perfectly valid, well put.

Ok, I get that the first sympathetic thing being baine is in fact gear grinding. I personally think Baine should put his hoof down on that one- through derek’s skull, putting the poor bastard out of his misery, making a public stand vs sylvanas, etc.

But other than that (and im not necesarily directing this part to you personally)… you guys dont really get to complain about getting villian batted if you defend what was being done to Derek. Again, idk if you personally did that on the past but i’ve seen a lot of horde posters doing it.

I have a real hard time picturing MHPs getting off of being punched in the face, being unable to retaliate and then being told to play nice with the horde again after a patch or so of war.

At that part you started frothing at the mouth and pretty much lost me. If actually you think blizz is actually going through the effort (during the laziest expac ever) of putting “dogwhistles” in their mediocre rehash then i feel kinda sorry for you man

1 Like

Well, yeah, in my personal ideal version of that narrative, Baine would have taken Derek to Thunder Bluff and placed him in the care of the Forsaken there, or even better, some other thing entirely would have happened. I don’t agree with the Horde posters that defend Sylvanas’s actions there, but I think most of them are kind of RPing loyalists in defiance of how lame the horde story is, so I’m sympathetic.

The average MHP - and by that I mean, person who’s invested in the type of narrative I described, a group which does not consist entirely of MHPs nor to which all MHPS belong - has killed a lot of Horde this expansion and probably didn’t care all that much about Teldrassil. Yeah, shame for them that they’re not going to get to decapitate every Orc in Ogrimmar and begin a hundred years of peace for their people, but my point isn’t about the main beats of the story, the cutscenes and all, it’s the actual texture of the game, the quests and the npcs and all, and that’s been pretty MHP-friendly, like, forever.

Don’t mistake my passion for the subject for irrationality, my dear. Of course Blizzard isn’t doing it on purpose - they’re just not thinking about it and they never really have. Violent race war between the good europeans and the stinky barbarians is embedded deeply into the psychology of Warcraft; that’s what the ‘War in Warcraft’ kinda means. They’ve never really thought about it. They didn’t think about it when they had a european-coded naval power sack the capital of a thriving south american-coded society. They didn’t think about it when they took pains to describe how stinky and smelly Vol’jin was back in MOP. They didn’t think about it when a blonde-haired, blue-eyed prince was needed to save a foreign culture from itself. All I want is for them to start thinking about it.

But hey, if you want to dismiss all of the things I’m saying and not engage with my ideas at all, dismissing me as a frothing, conspiratorial SJW would be a good start. You do you, man.

Edit: I suppose I should mention that I think, in some ways, BFA actually made strides in this department, in that it presented the Zandalari as a thriving, worthy and ancient culture without any european coding at all. It was neat. Sure, they needed saving, but who doesn’t in Warcraft? There were regressions in other areas, but, you know, that at least was nice.

4 Likes

The Alliance should not take a dark turn, absolutely not. I’m sorry, but the faction’s elements will always be about representing honor, justice, and bringing light to the darkest corners of the world. That has just been the faction principle since day 1.

However, that doesn’t mean that the Alliance shouldn’t have darker elements to it, represented by certain races. Worgen were promised to be a shadier side of the Alliance once upon a time in early Cataclysm interviews, stated as lacking the purity of the Draenei. More recently, we’ve gotten Void Elves and the Night Elves are taking a darker turn as well with the Night Warrior ritual. One thing to keep in mind is that dark does not always have to mean evil, look up the Dark is Not Evil trope on TV Tropes and there’s so many examples of the concept.

So yes, nothing necessarily wrong with asking Alliance to have some darker elements even if it’s overall a Light-centric faction, just as we’re aware the Horde is a darker faction comprising of monster races but still has some Light element represented by the Blood Elves. But I definitely agree, Horde players don’t like the direction of their story being bad guys, why would any of them or Alliance players think that would be any good or better if it was forced on the Alliance as well?

Actually his point isn’t as out there as you think it is. How many POC human characters do you see in the game? Like, are there any Asian humans, for example? Can you even make a human look Asian in the character creator?

No, because the Asian characters in this game are anthropomorphic pandas, literally dehumanizing them. Native Americans are tauren, and trolls are a mish mash of mostly black and Mesoamerican cultures (look at the voice cast and see who the black actors are voicing, then look and see who is voicing the human characters).

Intended or not, the idea that humanity is synonymous with Eurocentricm is deeply coded into the game.

6 Likes

How does it show that?

Ebonhorn and the Drogbar help out Alliance players just as they help out Horde players in empowering the Heart of Azeroth, and Ebonhorn himself comes to stay in the Heart Chamber along with Magni and the neutral Champions of Azeroth.

That doesn’t mean they’re neutral. Tons of characters throughout the game’s history have helped a neutral faction or even the opposite faction, that doesn’t mean they’re no longer part of their home faction, it just means they’re willing to help towards a greater goal that also interests them.

Hell, the player themselves helps Magni, becomes exalted with the Champions of Azeroth, and even works with members of the opposite faction while doing so. Are they also supposed to be neutral?

Neutral does not mean they’re no longer part of their home faction. You can still be neutral and still be part of your home faction. That is what the majority of neutral characters are.

You make a fair point about the players joining the Champions of Azeroth. But the players are also Schrödinger’s Champion, unless there are two Champions, one for each side, we do not even know which side actually has the Champion of Azeroth.

Though, given the events of Nazjatar, the players will very well likely end up being just as neutral in everything as well.

1 Like

I’m not so sure. When Thrall was made neutral, he was effectively removed from the Horde. When Dalaran became neutral, it was no longer part of the Alliance. What I would classify as neutral is an entity which has left either of the two major factions to join a third party which has no involvement in their conflict.

For example, the Cenarion Circle, Earthen Ring, and Argent Crusade are all neutral factions. But many of their members aren’t neutral themselves, they still belong to either the Alliance or Horde, as well as the faction of their own race. Hamuul Runetotem is still a Tauren belonging to the Horde, as well as being a member of the Circle, so he isn’t neutral himself, he’s just partly aligned to a neutral faction.

In the context of this conversation, I’m not sure it matters which side has the champion, either way the point is the same. As too for Legion, no matter which faction any order hall leader belonged too, they were also still part of either the Alliance and Horde, and not neutral themselves, which was also the case for most members of the halls. They were just coming together for a greater purpose, not becoming neutral to their faction.

Im gonna reply to Dunariel tomorrow, dont have the time rn- but since this one is shorter:

No, you cant make asian nor african american humans simply because the setting doesnt allow for it. You can only make square humans in minecraft, is that discrimating somehow against fat people? If i were to make a black panther rpg im not gonna give you the option to play tchalla as an asian dude

Yeah, and? Anthropomorphic representation of certain groups of people have been a thing for as long as entertainment has been a thing. For example, as far as im aware the french and mexican mostly either like Pepe le pew and Speedy Gonzalez or just dont care.

Oh and by the way, in the Warcraft setting my own culture (im from paraguay- south america) is just about non existant- but im not losing sleep over it. The closest it comes is the orc’s “lok’tar ogar” because a part of our national anthem literally goes “victory or death” (except we actually mean it bc we’re not total wusses like the orcs).

Hell, if the orcs were based on my culture i’d be flattered- i’d get to kick virtual europeans in the teeth every two expansions or so and get away with it.

VAs means nothing- black people have voiced white characters or even animals before, women have voiced men, who cares?

pfft

There several things wrong with that statement, hell, wow humans are not even human humans- they’re cursed viking robots. Moreover, I can go and find tons of games where humanity or more specifically the USA or X european country stand in are represented as decadent and beyond fixing- nobody bats an eye

Even if its true, it doesnt matter, who cares?

1 Like

Kinda the point. The setting has a limited idea of what humanity is or should look like.

This part is kind of a mess filled with fall equivalencies, but in any case, what other games do is not relevant. Suppose they were problematic, their problems don’t detract from WoW’s Eurocentrism. Also Tchalla is an established character, of course you can’t change his ethnicity.

Bad examples. Both are largely considered to be offensive stereotypes. Speedy Gonzales was even pulled off the air in 1999 and his old cartoons now come with a warning label stating those were a product of their time and don’t reflect the modern views of Warner Bros.

Just because a thing has existed for a while doesn’t mean it’s okay. Animation is rife with controversy and practices change as the culture shifts.

Not everyone is going to be bothered by their culture be appropriated. What’s offensive to one group of people could be considered an honor to another. Just because you aren’t offended doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be mindful of those who are.

Always a good sign that I am conversing with a thoughtful individual who respects viewpoints other than their own.

Their origins are irrelevant. They are called humans. They represent humanity. And again, what another game does is irrelevant. We aren’t talking about other games. We are talking about Warcraft.

It is true. Show me a human settlement with architecture, culture, and peoples inspired by non-Europeon civilizations. You don’t have to care. You can continue to ignore this issue. But don’t deny it exists simply because you are apathetic.

3 Likes

Not a problem, other settings present humanity as being wholy asian, or irreparably doomed- and its ok because its fiction.

Yes, Tchalla is an established character because Wakanda also is an established place in the marvel. Since its in Africa, everyone there (idk if his adopted brother is still canon) is black, and thats ok. Nobody is going to call out BP’s writers everytime Tchalla fights someone like Klaw because he’s white and brings up uncomfortable parallels- it just makes sense for the setting.

In the very same way, humans in wow (whats left of them anyway) were established as being viking robots, then just vikings, then europeans. And its not like european culture is being gloryfied or anything- SW and KT (and maybe dalaran if it hasnt exploded again, but thats debatable) are literally the last two bastions of humanity in the setting, everyone else got kicked in the teeth.

No, Speedy Gonzales was pulled off the air because the USA thought he was offensive, and the mexicans got pissed because they actually like him.

So yes, it is a good example. Just because one group of people thinks something is off doesnt mean its an objective fact and everyone also has problem with it

Again, and just because you are offended, it doesnt mean everyone else will find the same thing offensive- and their positions are just as valid as yours.

Other settings are important here because it shows us whats acceptable to do.

Say, in Kung fu Panda (which the chinese loved btw, the same way mexicans liked Speedy), everyone is an animal and asian, europe or africa presumably do not exist- and this is ok, because thats how the setting was established.

In Fallout, humanity is (america in particular) messed things up big time and whenever its not in decline its either stagnant, crazy or growing at a snails pace- and this is ok, because thats how the setting was established.

In Asoiaf, Westeros has very clear european inspirations and they’re total bastards, yes there are other ethnicities in setting and they’re also total bastards- and this is ok, because thats how the setting was established.

I, personally at least, don’t see the prolbem with a setting where humans are european and they’re (whats left of them, anyway) halfway decent dudes.