Stealth ability doesn’t feel stealthy because of Spy

[Fasciae-fairbanks]

Blizzard’s complete lack of a response does not imply they blessed it in any way at all - such a disingenuous stretching of reality.

https://www.townlong-yak.com/framexml/8.1.5/Blizzard_CombatLog/Blizzard_CombatLog.lua

Such mystery, they provide the entire log code for people to work with… /facepalm

This addon reads what could be hundreds of lines of data to give you an incredibly accurate portrayal of the opposing raid group with relative locations by parsing information from the combat log.

No, this addon tells you a ton of people are within 200 yards of you, assuming of course they actually do anything that shows on the Combat Log. This isn’t some direct to SciFi channel HUD where everyone gets a smart target attached to them that just somehow works… it is more like the motion sensors in the Alien franchise, minus any range finding, so worse.

Now because I’m sure you will go off on a tangent about how damage meters do the same thing, I want to heavily stress this is absolutely not the same thing.

Yeah, they filter the information and give you a lot more.

Certainly there are addons, such as Gatherer or Auctioneer that provide a lot of quality of life enhancements, but you can do everything those addons do without the use of them, albeit much more difficulty.

Spy provides nothing you can’t do yourself without it.

[Hammis-tortheldrin]

You seem to be having problems understanding your own response.

Spy does nothing more or less ‘not humanly possible’ than Gatherer or Auctioneer.

[Brewbeard-grobbulus]

I’m not sure what kind of argument you are trying to construct differentiating between “group pvp” and “wpvp,” especially when discussing an add-on that was non-functional by the time BWL opened (per the add-on discussion you graciously pointed out).

Blizzard has already established precedent that concluding if an add-on existed in similar form or function is insufficient for it to remain in the game.

That was, in fact, the argument and decision regarding classicLFG. ClassicLFG’s primary functionality existed during vanilla in the form of Call To Arms. The efficiency of coding, the ability to automate some of player grouping, and it’s ability to cross layers were all cited as examples of the modern iteration of the add-on breaking the “spirit” of vanilla and ultimately led to it being restricted in its functionality.

Diminishing Spy’s current abilities, which include things like alerting players to enemy abilities far beyond the 200m (ignoring for the moment that the 200m boundary itself hasn’t been established as being possible in vanilla, yet), auto-targeting, and auto-generating lists of targets, to something like spell alert is one of the clearest analogous examples of a modern add-on substantively altering the current playstyle of players vis-a-vis to vanilla players in group pvp…or wpvp if you think those are separate categories.

The add-on authors themselves pointed out that their add-ons either didn’t function or shouldn’t be used within those conditions for specific reasons. Some of the calls that are being made now didn’t even exist in the early API.

If your argument was that players should be able to update and continue using spellalert, which was spammy, buggy, and an overflow of information that rendered it useless in large scale PvP then we would not be having this discussion.

Instead, you are saying since those rudimentary and problematic add-ons that simply parsed a combat log existed, then all forms of any modern add-on that uses a similar function regardless of anything else it does are legitimate.

That’s an argument you have not been able to make persuasively. The power and additional functions of Spy compared to those earlier iterations basic combat log parsers is the issue being raised–not whether there was any kind of add-on that notified a user of something happening in the game. You’ve tried to reframe the discussion that way, but it’s not the issue being raised in this thread.

[Marinol-blackrock]

Please learn to read. PLEASE.

My example was very clear and is a direct example of a instance when a human can’t have that information. I can guarantee you can’t analyze lines in a combat log for 80+ individuals within milliseconds - it’s not possible.

Please stop pretending this addon doesn’t have some capability that a person can’t do but it’s a straight up lie.

[Hammis-tortheldrin]

I read your stupid example.

I can’t read thousands of Auctions in seconds and correlate them within a database of histroical values to let me know which items are above and below margins.

I can’t memorize every position of every herb and keep track of the last time they were picked and know down to the second when they will respawn. And I can’t share all that info with my guild and they share it with me like an addon does near instantly.

It just isn’t possible without taking some time, just like it would take some time to read combat logs and figure out the rough perimeter where messages are sourced.

[Brewbeard-grobbulus]

My example was very clear and is a direct example of a instance when a human can’t have that information. I can guarantee you can’t analyze lines in a combat log for 80+ individuals within milliseconds - it’s not possible.

This is a correct interpretation of the impact those early add-ons had during vanilla, in my opinion.

The only add-ons that have been shown to have existed during vanilla’s timeframe explicitly warn against using them in group pvp for the reasons you’re explaining in your example.

If a player used spellalert, for example, during a 40v40 their entire screen would have been filled with every ability, every talent, every action, of every player within range of the combat log.

Clearly that’s not what Spy is doing now and it’s also why those add-ons weren’t used in group pvp and their popularity only rose to prominence during TBC where they were heavily used in arena.

The reason Spy doesn’t do this in Classic is because we are on a modern client, the API has changed to allow the authors to filter the information they scrape, and even the frames where they visualize the information for players are completely different from vanilla.

[Fasciae-fairbanks]

Instead, you are saying since those rudimentary and problematic add-ons that simply parsed a combat log existed, then all forms of any modern add-on that uses a similar function regardless of anything else it does are legitimate.

These are pointless descriptors. The API calls used have only changed in name, not functionality. The Combat Log has added parameters, not removed them. CHAT_MSG_ was replaced with COMBAT_LOG_ with identical returns and parameters, so when many authors complain about Blizzard “breaking” something, they just needed to find-replace calls to get the exact same information. The calls existed, were used by a host of addons, and have been used for 15yrs, together, to perform everything from scrolling combat text to boss mods to roleplay events to radars.

This line of reasoning holds no water because literally every addon we use today had its origins in bad, wonky, slow, inconsistent, terribly written code, and they’re all a lot sleeker and nicer today. As for your comparison to ClassicLFG, well it isn’t remotely same. Blizzard had to specifically take steps to break it by protecting certain API functions… but didn’t actually succeed in breaking the addon in any way those that hated it wanted. I can still search for and form groups using the UI, without ever touching a standard chat in a city, or even be in a city for that matter. Works wonders on my alt when guildies are not online or I’m on at odd hours.

Unlike ClassicLFG however, you’d have to break access to the Combat Log wholesale. The API call is a simple scrap of the log, that’s it. You can then have your addon code handle the 13-16 data points from there. There is no toggle to make Stealth not show in the log, and denying access to the log would go against 15yrs of collaborative effort between Blizzard and the modding community.

You’d have an easier time advocating for breaking UI commands that auto-buy/sell from a vendor than denying addon access to the Combat Log.

The power and additional functions of Spy

Each and every one of these existed and worked in Vanilla. It really is that simple.

My example was very clear and is a direct example of a instance when a human can’t have that information. I can guarantee you can’t analyze lines in a combat log for 80+ individuals within milliseconds - it’s not possible.

Your example completely misapprehends what Spy does for someone in that situation, which is why you miss Hammis’ point.

[Brewbeard-grobbulus]

Each and every one of these existed and worked in Vanilla. It really is that simple.

If we want to boil this down to simple arguments, the ability of Spy to exchange information among players did not exist until Wrath. We haven’t even established that vanilla’s combat log detected stealth out to 200m, but Spy goes even further and shares detected stealthies among everyone running the add-on throughout an entire zone.

You referenced Carbonite and Gathermate earlier in this discussion. We had to download a player-generated dB to share our nodes in those add-ons. Now they share the information among users in-game.

[Fasciae-fairbanks]

If we want to boil this down to simple arguments, the ability of Spy to exchange information among players did not exist until Wrath.

Fine, break the addon-only channel API access related to combat log info and see how far that gets you.

/giggle

Oh and by the way, addon-to-addon communication was added in Patch 1.12.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/API_C_ChatInfo.SendAddonMessage

[Hammis-tortheldrin]

If we want to boil this down to simple arguments, the ability of Spy to exchange information among players did not exist until Wrath.

This is a coherent argument.

Like Classic LFG, the only thing Blizzard restricted was some of its Addon-Only channel communication.

If Blizzard ever restricted Spy, that is most likely what they would restrict. But until that time… happy hunting.

[Brewbeard-grobbulus]

Fine, break the addon-only channel API access and see how far that gets you.

/giggle

With this response, the thread participants can now conclude that you are not approaching this conversation in good faith.

The ability of Spy to share information among players far beyond the limits of vanilla’s combat log is of primary concern to players arguing it should not exist in Classic.

Your response to that legitimate concern is “/giggle”

[Fasciae-fairbanks]

If Blizzard ever restricted Spy, that is most likely what they would restrict. But until that time… happy hunting.

Even after restricting this, you’d still have the same complaint as the Rogue would still show up if they use any ability, buff, etc, you’d still be able to target them if they’re close enough, etc.

The Spy to Spy communication is mostly for KoS stuff, at least as a default. I’m sure you could make it spam all other users with updates such that someone 500+ yards away is showing on your screen… but… why? Why would you want that?

[Hammis-tortheldrin]

Even after restricting this, you’d still have the same complaint as the Rogue would still show up if they use any ability, buff, etc, you’d still be able to target them if they’re close enough, etc.

Yes. That is true.

The same thing would happen without a stealth notification in the combat log.

The same thing would happen even without Spy.

[Fasciae-fairbanks]

that legitimate concern

I’m sure you could make it spam all other users with updates such that someone 500+ yards away is showing on your screen… but… why? Why would you want that?

This is the “legitimate concern”? Someone outside of the city, in the next zone, showing up on a bank-alt’s Spy?

This is how I know you’ve never had to design a process control system or equivalent. To put it in very simple terms, imagine if your car blared at you every time your total fuel dropped by 25%. Now every 10%. Every 5%. 1%.

[Fasciae-fairbanks]

The same thing would happen without a stealth notification in the combat log.

I get this keeps coming up because it seems very elegant, but the Combat Log is a mess of parameters. Even if you added a flag that would ensure nothing showed up that was “sneaky” for hostiles, you’d have to add a value to every damn event with regards to that flag. You’d also have to make sure that for the first time ever, we have an event in the Combat Log that only shows for SOME people, rather than be straight up hidden at all times, so how the Combat Log even shows up by default needs changes because to keep it sneaky, you’d have to ensure the check for hostility never shows up anywhere either.

Then there is the question of skills like Vanish. It has its own sound effect, it is typically done while you’re engaged as an emergency skill, but following the “sneaky shouldn’t be in the log” line of thinking, is this going to be hidden as well? A Rogue goes behind a pillar and we lose sight and we have to guess if he Vanished or Stealthed, but a Druid goes LoS and we can see all their casts and shapeshifts in the log?

It is a mess.

I just don’t get this sudden desire to fixate heavily on immersion when the Combat Log has declared all entity events since forever, in a game where you rarely have to aim anything and enemies inexplicably want to smoosh the armor-clad thing that won’t die over the pink-haired Gnome stabbing their ankles really hard.

/shrug

[Hammis-tortheldrin]

It is a mess.

Yes. That is the point of Addons… to make the interface even remotely usable.

However, the current combat log filtering system is pretty slick. Just having a tab that shows enemy activity is all you need to know that someone is around.

If you want a ‘rogue stealth’ filter just make one that shows only enemy ‘aura events.’ Then the only thing that shows will be when enemies status effects changes… stealth included.

[Fasciae-fairbanks]

Yes. That is the point of Addons… to make the interface even remotely usable.

Agreed.

If you want a ‘rogue stealth’ filter just make one that shows enemey actions and only ‘aura events.’ Then the only thing that shows will be when enemies status effects changes… stealth included.

Yup!

[Marinol-blackrock]

My example is stupid yet it’s a real example of exactly how the addon is used - are you completely brain dead?!??

Your last note proved me right. You saying it isn’t possible without time is exactly why it’s not the same. The capabilities of Spy are simply not possible because no human can aggregate that data in real time and without it the addon is useless. And that is why it is unequivocally not the same as Auctioneer or Gatherer.

[Mettlebrew-illidan]

SPY totally ruins gameplay for rouges.

And this is a bad thing why? The rogue class should be deleted from the game imo… or they should never get vanish. You start something you better be ready to finish it instead of running like a wimp when you start to lose…

[Hammis-tortheldrin]

You really are confused. I’m sorry I don’t think I can help you.