State of Destruction: Spec design philosophy

Classes Warlock
21

I see the point that Havoc is a problematic design for the spec, as it means that if the spec is balanced when there is one target it is overpowered when there are two, and if it is balanced where there are two targets it is underpowered when there is only one.

For those people saying Havoc is core to the class, you are provably incorrect. It is more modern and more recent to the spec than several of the things they have removed (Shadowburn, original backdraft, etc).

From my point of view, spec design exists on several levels, and while people may disagree on the importance of the levels and the levels interact, I think we can agree there is a distinction. Firstly we have the base decisions and interactions of the spec: the flow of the rotation and how the player and skill interact with it. Secondly we have flavor, fantasy, and a feeling of awesomeness which should be present in a game (potentially the order of these two should be reversed, or put on the same level).

After those things, which form the base experience, we get into balance and things which make balance problematic. WoW and other games have been proving for decades now that if the first two points are working well that people are going to enjoy a spec, even if it is underbalanced. The counterpoint is also true, where if a spec/class/role is performing just fine but feels clunky to play people arenā€™t going to have a great time.

The Havoc question touches on interaction and decision points, and some are arguing it touches on flavor and fantasy, but I think primarily our concern is with how difficult it makes destruction to balance. Absolutely this is something to be addressed but I think it is not as core as addressing the more fundamental problems rotting the spec.

One potential solution is to have havoc copy all spells except Chaos Bolt. This is how it already functions in PvP with Focus Chaos mandatory and it doesnā€™t feel bad at all. Havoc usage becomes about, well, double-coil, but also about maximising shard generation. This change would greatly reduce the problem of balancing havoc between when it is usable and not. You could make a talent that restores it duplicating Chaos Bolt which would compete against other sizable dps bonuses.

So much depth has been removed from destruction (all warlock specs or specs in general) and there arenā€™t a lot of choices to make anymore.

Absolutely. This is the fundamental point I am trying to make: 1. That there are less decisions and interaction and 2. That this makes me enjoy a spec I have played for a decade a lot less.

I realise that this is not a particularly new argument but I hope that Blizzard can begin to see that the emotional payoff for their game is rooted in the interactions and decision points we are talking about, an aspect of the game which is suffering a ā€œdeath by a-thousand-cutsā€.

4 Likes
22

All I want is old Shadowburn and FnB back. :C

2 Likes
23

Exactly Zalgo, Iā€™m not sure why these abilities which were core to both flavor and interaction were removed/reworked to have both their flavor and interaction stripped away.

1 Like
24

They could add a talent in place of soul conduit that changes how Havoc functions ie no longer strikes the Havoc victim but applies a dmg amplification to the target. So you cast it on your primary target instead.

1 Like
25

Havoc as it is, is one of the most fun features of the game. Thereā€™s nothing comparable to seeing two big Chaos Bolts flying; itā€™s very rewarding. Plus, the tab targeting (and choosing targets) is easy to learn but takes skill to really master. Havoc is one of the few well designed skills on the set at the moment, as much as it is hard to properly balance.

1 Like
26

We can look at this from another angle: When Havoc no longer ā€˜worksā€™, the incentive is big enough for Focused Chaos to really buff Chaos Bolt - a 65% increase.

I donā€™t deny that proper use of Havoc is rewarding, but hereā€™s the question: Should Destruction be built with baseline Havoc and tune around it, or should Havoc be an optional talent that Destruction can opt for?

The fundamental issue is fairly simple: As long as Havoc works with Chaos Bolt, donā€™t expect Chaos Bolt to feel rewarding/hard hitting.

2 Likes
27

I feel Chaos Bolt already hits hard enough. It doesnā€™t have to do with Havoc, but with the cooldowns (as in, if Infernal is up or not). Havoc is not only mechanically rewarding, itā€™s visibly rewarding (you see the effects of Havoc - two spells). The best you plan you use your Havoc, the more rewarded you are. Itā€™s different than brainless rewards, if you understand what I mean. Without Havoc the spec feels somewhat blandā€¦ Generic.

1 Like
28

I donā€™t get this stance: maximized havoc usage should always be tied to a focus macro. There is no special talent to using Havoc. It would be fine to move it back as a talent and enable destruction to have aoe and single target options on that same talent tier so the spec wouldnā€™t be pigeonholed into one particular play niche.

Destro dominates on spread cleave logs above the 80th percentile in mythic raiding. It is vastly inferior in mythic pluses to Demonology since that is the only lock spec with any decent aoe, particularly with reaping. Even nerfed itā€™s the most flexible spec. Aff dominates pure single target.

Havoc only requires a weakaura and a focus macro.

1 Like
29

Dreygur, I donā€™t mean to offend you here, but did you read the original post?

Chaos bolt has NEVER been tied to a DPS cooldown in the past, and it was one of the fundamental aspects of the class that we didnā€™t rely on DPS cooldowns - every chaos bolt was a spike moment, not just chaos bolts every three minutes.

In addition I agree with other commentators, Havoc is not skill-full, it is not a difficult ability to use. It can be entirely replaced by a macro. It is, still, brainless. The other discussed items added depth and decision-making to the class. Iā€™m really not sure how you can argue Havoc - which was only added post-wrath anyway - is more core to the spec then aspects which legitimately added flavor and legitimately added interaction and decisions.

30

Yuckā€¦ ita gross. I want inferal removed or at least chaos bolts power not relying on it. Feels so bad. Wsy too many talents/traits that only work with a 3 min cd.

3 min cdā€™s feeeeeel baaaaaad

31

Donā€™t worry, you donā€™t offend me. The point about our spec just feeling strong during CDs is valid - thereā€™s really too much of a difference of when Infernal is up (and, to a small extent, DS) and when itā€™s not, and having it more streamlined would be good.

With that said, itā€™s not like youā€™re just casting CB while Infernal is up. I think itā€™s a lot more about spreading immolate everywhere and havocā€™ing to generate more resources and throw more CBs. If some of Havoc can be automated by macros and WeakAuras, regardless, itā€™s still a fun mechanic to use - and all automation in the world wonā€™t cover for the most hectic scenarios.

Letā€™s put things on perspective: Wrath was a long time ago. Havoc is core to the spec now and had been for a while, and people like me find it fun. I donā€™t think itā€™s brainless at all (honestly, if anything, Iā€™d love to see we having to Havoc even more frequently, to more targets, etc.).

32

Yeah it actually can because no matter how hectic a fight is you can macro /tar and /focus and a dead or live target check with a clear focus modifier and just use it on CD. Which if you arenā€™t doing you are giving up DPS.

Havoc should be a talent. At least you could potentially do decent single target then.

Personally, I donā€™t love chaos bolt nor do I love not casting any Shadow spells as destruction. Which is a big demerit to me. Destruction was a shadow spec in Vanilla and BC.

33

Iā€™m sure Iā€™m reading this wrong, but Iā€™m having trouble parsing out what you mean here.

Regardless, his point was that itā€™s easy to find scenarios where the target youā€™re using Havoc on changes. Off the top of my head, I can think of cases when Iā€™d cast Havoc on a different target on Blockade, for example. Unless youā€™re saying just make 4 different Havoc macros?

34

Are you also setting focus on mouse over or something of the sorts? In fights like conclave, I use whatever I can to properly Havoc the dino adds, for example. If I completely automate the process I feel I wonā€™t be Havocā€™ing the right priority, or will have to be switching focus too often. To be clear, I usually Havoc a (red if existing) dino with a mouse-over focus macro and target a different (red if existing) dino with the spells (CB, immolate, whatever needed). Itā€™s very common to have to switch to a different dino between casts. If I simply Havoc whatever the boss is priority it would be much easier, but it wouldnā€™t be helping as much the group (we want to get the adds down as fast as possible before focusing the priority boss again). It feels to me as if some people are trying too hard to de-value Havocā€¦

@Tragik: I donā€™t think youā€™re raiding as Destruction (no logs I could findā€¦ Just Demo etc.). Not to put your opinion down, but maybe you should try the spec to be able to provide a more solid contribution here!

35

No you make one macro with modifiers for different targets. I used to do it in MoP all the time. I had different macros for almost every fight in those raids.

Also I only did a few LFRs with it and found it boring and incredibly inflexible in playstyle to demo or aff. The only way the spec is worth anything is with havoc usage. Which all I am saying is no black art. Without macro usage itā€™s just slightly higher effort than aff keeping agony on everything, which is just as tied to a 3 minute cd to feel strong.

36

Why does Havoc not work similar to beast cleave? It just feels bad tabbing or clicking a target to gain full benefit of Havoc. I think it would be sweet if Havoc turned Incinerate into mini Chaos Bolts for our AoE/Cleave damage or maybe Rain of Fire damage improves for the shard cost?

I love how Destruction plays in PvP and Raids but as many have said the Mythic+ scene it is not a desirable spec to play. I have mention on other post that Demo I lag out or feel I need to finally upgrade my machine.

This weeks affixes I can see where Destruction lacks and I was very shard starved.

37

I have never needed to macro a rotation for PVE. That is bad to force players to macro a rotation. PVP I have always macro but never for PVE that feels bad. I really wish they would just do something with Incinerate or Rain of Fire to improve Mythic+ AoE/Cleave. Cataclysm is great I love the spell but we are what many have said a 3 minute burst.

Also, people state 5 shards to blow bolts. Really you cannot wait that long in higher keys to start assisting the group. If Destruction AoE/Cleave abilities were just improved a little bit the quality of life in high keys would improve by leaps and bounds.

38

ya, I am reading all of these about macroing havoc or priority targets and my only question is how big are these folks action bars / keyboards / mice to have all these done - I feel I am at my limit with 2 sets of 7 bars for main spells (14) and then another 30 buttons all hotkeyed to stuff like alt + 1, alt + 2, alt +3, shift +1, etc.

To set my focus is alt +g and to target my focus I just tap g. So for most fights itā€™s set focus > fight starts > ā€œgā€, havoc, go back to last target > continue. I could probably optimize but honestly with some of the fights and the way you need to burn down adds I wouldnā€™t trust just macroing, setting and forgetting.

39

Wrong character

40

I have thought about doing that Crimson but with pvp my hotkeys are kinda lined up for that scenario. It would be awfully painful to swap keys so often. My experience is warrior, prot/holy pally, resto shammy, hunter, and now a warlock. Never had I had to set up hotkeys for trash.

I do use focus and have that setup. Mainly a quick macro to assist tank. Yet, I play with a monk who likes to swap targets. By the time I am rolling Havoc the target is swapped and now I am tabbing or clicking to find a specific target. Not use to being a clicker at all.

All the tools are there for a Destruction Warlock to do great cleave and aoe rotations but they seem lack luster because of the rotation. This leaves me feeling shard starved. I have been taking everyoneā€™s advice and thinking about testing out demo again. My boss damage is so good that I am almost OK being 2nd or 3rd overall.