not baseline, also we still don’t know if they actually intend on keeping Tongue Tied as a PVE Talent rather than move it to PVP and replace it with something else (eg azerite trait)
I summarized it in the Compilation thread as:
but its hard to determine which is the majority preference for the community or which is better from a design standpoint
The problem is the interrupt even a minute CD I terrupt would be better than no interrupt at this point
Among all the things we need fixed (mobility, interrupts, flow of class), they are trying to increase summon time of pets to 6 sec which is completely insane. It affects all areas of gameplay (swap pet on the fly in combat, resummon a killed pet because my specialized pet is less tanky than a generic hunter pet?) but didnt blizzard state that our pets are supposed to be disposable? Isnt the cost to resummon our pet already enough at 2 sec cast and a soul shard?
For mobility, give me demon leap back and ill be happy. Not even targeted, just a set distance i can rely on. It is ABSURD that the class that deals with portals has the least mobility (circle is ok, but the nature of fights now makes it unreliable in normal circumstances, same with gateway).
As far as complexity. Where is our reward? How am I supposed to be satistfied at how MUCH I have to put in compared to say a demonhunter who took my abilities, to have comparable damage? My bars are littered with abilities I have to use to be comparable. The best way for a warlock to excel is knowing the fight and moving as little as possible. Speaking of abilities, how absurd is it that we dont even know how much damage a single imp or dreadstalker does, or that the tooltip doesnt even mention their dreadbite, its only implied in talents.
Seriously. Warlock since the first day, raiding every expansion (first 2 mythics last night, beating the roster boss)… and it still feels like my class is in beta. Mechanics taken and give back. The original design philosophy of warlock was Risk vs Reward. Do i summon that demon and have it break midfight? These days the only risk is being a warlock. Ill never turn my back on demo. On warlock. But I dream of so much more.
hey man i remember abit of that risk reward thrme i thinknwas in cata a spell that let uou deal unlimited aoe but with your hp as cost and mana was a thing so life tap for extra mana
Good old hellfire I remember that…now just the tiny imp mobs in legion seem to do that. 
Because the whole idea you can supplement 36 specs with temporary power every 2 years is absurd. They need to throw that concept away. It’s nigh impossible to implement something of that scale at that pace and hit it consistently. They’ve failed every time they’ve tried it.
Instead each should be a consistent cross-expansion theme. Is a spec good as-is? Good don’t touch it. Instead find ways to improve what it is and if that means giving players more flexibility between the complex versus simple access that’s fine but do not under any circumstances overhaul something that is fine as-is.
implosion maybe, but I dont want demo to be just a one and done cool down centric spec, we already have that in destro and aff.
The theme of demo should have one focus. more demons.
I feel you, honestly I like how atleast now with Visions of Perfection, Tyrant is a 1 min cooldown. I’ve said this before no class or spec regardless if Warlock or not should be tied to a long cool down to perform well… ala Destro…
People have mentioned that as Demo ramps up, so should our demons, imps become other demons, dreadstalkers change, as we ramp the demons we summon become stronger and stronger.
Then for example it be player skill to hold the ramp up to continue high damage, for M+, the skill would be not to reset back to summoning imps again.
Shadow priest try stay in void form as long as possible, a good player will keep that going so they the haste stacks out of form to push back into void form quicker…Demo could do something similar where we try to hold and keep up our ramp to keep stronger demons spawning.
So atleast with all this M+ and rush rush style of play that WoW is heading we can adapt too.
Or… they can just remove tyrant, give us meta and our Fel resource back and go back to Meta dancing for on demand bursts and utility… like how MoP was, my favourite style for Demo Lock… and let tyrant just be a demon we summon when we ramp up…
I always imagine how Demo would be if they kept metamorphosis in today’s game, m+ would be awesome, trash gets pulled, demonic strength, implosion, meta pop chaos wave, then could demonic leap to the next trash and finally not be the slowest class in the game, keep up with priest shielding themselves for movement, Mages blinking… can always be in the fight instantly.
I’ve never understood why Tyrant is the only cooldown with a cast time. No other spec in the game has to deal with such absurdity.
I prefer impswarm over hand of guldan version.
Although it was on a 45 sec cd. It was used on the right moment for burst. Those 5 imps were way stronger than the 20 imps we summon now.
Hand of guldan should summon larger demons and we should have impswarm back.
I honestly missed the glyph system. They removed the glyph system and they keep trying to replace major glyphs and tiers with borrowed power.
I personally hated borrowed power because once you lose it you have to start playing your class differently every expansion. There is no fix or stable foundation that these devs have done for classes.
I mean look how they ignore feedback because they are so blunt and ignorant to revert from the mistake they created. Their is only one solution andthat is to revert. Just admit it that they suck at fixing warlocks and move on
I will say I miss Legion “Hand of Guldan” where the imps spawned would be at the target rather than moving back to you taking about a second or 2 away from their uptime.
However we also have to deal with that with the current talent of “Summon Vilefiend” where just summoning it for its 15 seconds it takes 3 of those seconds to position itself to pounce at the target. I do wonder why it can’t be light our "Call Dreadstalkers and just instantly lung at the target.
I would truly enjoy the idea of “Hand of Guldan” summoning random demons like the talens we have such as “Inner Demons” and “Nether Portal” even if they didnt change the uptime I would be fine with that. Particularly if they made it so taking “Inner Demons” would add that to “Hand of Guldan” but only summon one random demon in addition to the imps so it wouldnt take away from implosion for AOE purposes.
In all honesty, scrap nether portal, it never worked well, spamming 1 shard Gul’dans is horrible play style and feels even worse.
Just bake the talent into Demo baseline, 15% when spending a soul shard you rip a demon from the twisting nether to assist for 10 seconds.
Replace it with Metamorphosis, that replaces our tyrant, 1.5 min cooldown, 30 sec uptime, Metamorphosis turns shadow bolt into demon fire, and implosion into chaos wave. Could even turn demonic circle into demonic leap for the nostalgia and mobility.
Make demon fire generate a soul shard hits slightly stronger and chaos wave aoe another spender of shards, so single target you hand of guldan get as many imps possible on them, in AoE you chaos wave burst…dreadstalkers and Felguard still play the same. Stack procs of demonbolt for shards and enjoy the play style we once had.
Boom, I just saved Demonology… if you don’t like that play style, demonic consumption and sacrificed souls are still their.
Doesn’t even have to be called metamorphosis, Demonic Possession or Demonic Rage, whatever it’s a name.
But atleast gives a similar alternate play style that a lot sorely miss and love.
People who love being a imp mother, nothing changes, people who liked meta back in mop early WoD, we got you, gives us variety within the spec.
Nether Portal is cool concept wise, but it just doesn’t make sense to not have it 1 demon per soul shard spent. I like the idea that we are continuously summoning hordes of a supposed private army that includes a former raid boss because reasons.
Inner Demons becoming Demo Mastery would be cool tbh yes.
“Wrath of Gul’dan”, modeled after his fel-power-up during the raid. Guldan basically became a Tyrant.
Reading through these replies, it reinforces why we can’t have nice things. Oh well, I’m pretty happy with my warlock, just hope Demonology gets an interrupt outside of the felhunter or Demonic Strength and Soul Strike are adjusted to work with the other pets as well. Mythic Xanesh isn’t fun right now as Demonology and our team needing interrupts.
This is why you need a spectrum of potential with each spec. The poles should be accessibility vs control on the y axis (for all specs) and then some variance flavor on the x axis (in the case of demonology that is summon vs sacrifice).
In my mind that’s how it would differ from the MoP talent system. For example row 1 in the talents has 3 different types of damage with two of them being on demand. These aren’t really competitive so I’d change this. Row 1 would be just two:
Baseline Demonic Strength.
This fits both the x and y axis idea as explained above. A third choice isn’t needed here. It also adds some strength to the base spec and clears up some confusion about what the differences are supposed to mean.
Then all the other tiers would work like this. Tier 3 which is a defensive tier would be:
That also follows the x and y axis idea from earlier. Baseline Burning Rush. Just more of the same in most of the other tiers.
It has always bothered me how spread our stuff is. Shouldnt all aoe be on one tier, all defensive on one. Mobility on another. Customize how you are built.
That’s what we were doing there. Dreadlash is AoE, so is Bilescourge Bombers. The defensive tiers are also fully defensive as I’m just baselining Burning Rush as that’s really the only mobility choice in that row.
I think the root of the problem with the MoP talent choices are 3 in each row. It should really just be 2, with one being for passive play and the other being for on demand. Once you pluck out that odd third a lot of stuff just falls in place better.
They need to do 2 things. Have talents to let you go the all out pet build then bring back metamorphesis where you empower yourself and turn into a bad-a demon like you used to be able to. This gives us two viable and good options for different people. They ruined demo I think…
It erks me that you sac the imps to summon a big bad tyrant and the tyrant shoots a piddly a$$ little fireball. At least they could change the fireball into something a lot cooler…
Blizzard-removing grimoire of sacrifice from demonology because we dknt want demonology sacrificing their demons.
Lets give them spells like implosion, demonic core, and demonic consumption to sacrifice these imps that we decided to make warlocks summon.
In reality demonology us not a master summoner specialization. Its an imp sacrificer in my eyes. I mean could u imagine how it would be if your regular imp benefited from the three abilities.
Who ever designed demonologies concept for legion and beyond sucked at their job and it looks like they still do for shadowlands because weeks have passed and feedback for demonology from alpha, live forums and streamers are being ignored. There is no clear solution from the devs about fixing the problems and reverting.