[Spoilers] Looks like more villain bat

i believe chronicles retconned her being ordered to attack, it says she instead convinced garrosh to let her be the one to invade instead of him because she wanted gilneas for her own

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That’s what I mean, she convinced Garrosh to let her lead it, so her people didn’t get dunked. She was in Icecrown when the attack started.

Looking at Garrosh’s wiki page atm, it still gives him credit for starting the invasion.

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i am just telling you what the chronicles said, it never mentions her people being put into a meat grinder like edge of night did, it instead uses the reason that she wanted gilneas to fall under her domain.

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Chronicles retcons the Horde to be evil worthless scum every chance it gets. Sylvanas no only attacked the Gilneans just because she’s evil and mean, she planned the entire wrathgate too with her Burning Legion friends.

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Chronicle is also less a story and more an encyclopedia of lore. Sylvanas did want Gilneas, that’s very true, but it omits the details that stories like Edge of Night add to it.

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ok this is something that i truly don’t understand.
i can be all day justifying jaina’s actions, but this is beyond retarded.
one thing is presenting her as “hero” to one faction, and another completely different is making basically the biggest enemy of the horde as the “hero” that you have to help.

like… WHAT?! wasn’t this supposed to be the “faction pride” ?
i truly sympathize with this.
and i hope that they change it before is too late.

if they do that to the horde players it will not be long until they do the same to the alliance player. hell, even i think that we have to help saurfang, the guy who orchestrated teldrassil /facepalm.

just… christ.

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I think in Elegy Tyrande says something about blaming Saurfang for the burning of Teld or something of that manner? Must be great as a nelf to have that behind you and then work with him to save another horde guy.

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Well, they guys did get rid of Ghuun. Let’s say the Horde broke even?

Eh Slug bro was only kinda sorta an old god. He’s the dumb looking one in that old meme of “Do you love me brother?” “Be strong, be strong for mother.”

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Either way that was a world save, I imagine.

One step forward, one step back. Better than being just one step back.

I feel like it’s half a step forward then tripping over our own shoelaces that Sylvanas tied together without us knowing while she and Nathanos laugh about it.

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Only after we fail to stop him in every leveling zone. Basically Horde content was being a failure, while defeating him was for both side. All the time we have to listen to Alliance this players complain about how we get all the winning.

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i don’t think that the alliance was canon in that raid.
nobody told us anything about uldir.

Yeah there is a lot of stuff that just feels forgotten when it comes times to push new story elements for expansion packs. Might just be the left hand not talking enough to the right hand when it comes to plot.

Since I’ve been involved in a wrestling match over this on another fact, I’ll just point out that Chronicles has two sentences about the lead up to the invasion of Gilneas.

“Garrosh Hellscream was not the only member of the Horde who desired Gilneas. Sylvanas Windrunner was eager to bring the kingdom under her dominion. She convinced Garrosh to give her control over the invasion force, and she led the Horde’s rampage through the isolated nation.”
From the person citing that elsewhere it’s on page 201 of whichever volume covers that.

It doesn’t touch anything about Garrosh ordering the invasion or Sylvanas’ motives for taking over the invasion. It adds a little info on Sylvanas’ desires, but doesn’t seem to effect the finer details that the questing provides.

Which means nothing to how it feels to the Horde player. Your leveling is all the fun of failing. Then the raid (if you even raid) is only a win in some obscure way you don’ even see? (And is even unknow except to those who know the obscure rules about what raid is cannon)? I don’t think so.

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Oh oh! that is how we feel with all our informed wins that are never shown on the game, welcome to the club!

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First Blizzard writes BfA as an incredibly forced “You must hate each other now!” and now expects players to get on board the “You must work together as allies now!” whiplash change in 8.2?

I can understand why Horde characters might loathe that idea, just as Alliance characters should detest the idea of working with Horde, post Teldrassil. Both factions have been ratcheted up to the point where they may just choose to sod off to one of those alternate worlds (Outlands, Draenor, Argus, Elunaria, etc), ignore the other faction entirely and let Azeroth burn. The writers will finally accomplish the Burning Legion’s goal - the world will end because no-one will save it. The difference is that people would try to stop the Legion. Now it seems better to let it all die and try to start somewhere else.

As a player (barely, these days) I’m left bemused by the writers being so completely disconnected from the players that this is meant to somehow work. I think we need to call in Amnesty International, because there’s a story being tortured to death in front of us.

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What is your definition of ‘punishing Horde player?’ Because it seems to me most people just mean ‘anything bad happening to the Horde.’ It seems to be used around here more as an excuse to have the Horde only get to win, never lose.

For the record, there are a lot of ways to hit the Horde in story without impacting the Horde players game play at all. Things can be done that really do not have a significant impact on the Horde player even in story either.

To what, lose another city. Get kicked in the teeth more? This is the second war the Horde started and done far more damage to the Alliance, things just can’t go back to the status quo. And, given all the the Alliance has lost, the Horde losing some ground is really not even close to equal. It gets tiresome when people try to explain how the Horde should not lose anything. And from the lore point of view, think about this: The Horde has done more damage to the Alliance than the really any expansion boss we have faced. How do you square the Alliance not seeing them as a threat that has to be removed no matter the cost without the Horde ending up losing more?

She did not get a free pass. Notice the point he was making:

‘Don’t punish the Horde war, genocide, etc…but give us the head of Jaina for throwing some elves in prison.’ Basically how the arguments come across.

And lets weigh the scales a bit. Put the bad Jaina has done to the Horde on one side and then put the bad the Horde has done to Jaina on the other. Not exactly an even balance.

Yep, Chronicles should be considered broad strokes. It does not conflict with the quest experience. So, experiencing it still provides the most details.

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Getting stuck back at having less content. A continuation of the way this storyline began where it felt very clear that not just that we as a Horde player were morally wrong, but that frankly that we were just the villains to the Alliance story. I haven’t gone through Alliance yet, I tend to do that more at the end of the expansion cycle, but I don’t doubt or argue that the Alliance story was bad in a different way.

Just to try and reset, I kinda like the idea one streamer floated about having Sylvanas just gone when we get back from Nazjatar, just take her out of the story so we can try to cool down. Let the Horde have a battle where we can hold our own without some macguffin, and buy a stalemate for a few expansions. Let the war go back to being the Battlegrounds and such. I think we just need to go to a stalemate for a few expansions until the emotions we as players are feeling cool down enough (or for Blizzard to figures out a satisfying conclusion for all of us.)

I don’t know how the writers can cash the check they wrote at the beginning of this expansion. What the Horde ended up doing was amazingly horrible in scale. And the way it was written was emotionally harsh for both faction’s players. And while I want you to have a satisfying experience, I want one for myself as well. And after the way the intro to this expansion seemed explicitly designed to shame the horde player, I don’t want to see any hint of the idea that I need to atone for the actions they placed on our shoulders. Let the night elves go on a rampage against us, let them do good fine. Let the Alliance have the horde cornered and on the ropes, don’t make me as a player atone for a sin the writers committed against all of us.

The problem also comes down to the fact that as the Horde we don’t have the stuff to lose. And even with the stuff that we got since Cata, it’s not to the scale of the stuff the Alliance has. There isn’t a Horde equivalent to a city like Theramore, so we don’t have a way to have loss like that. ?

And likewise, it gets tiring to try and explain the ways in which we have lost, and have it dismissed as not being as important as what the Alliance has lost. When you lose a Theramore, how many of the various Horde camps would be an equal return? And unfortunately, with a lot of the conversations going on now, what would the Alliance players count as a win for themselves? If there’s any hint of a complication, or an important Horde character doesn’t die quickly enough, it doesn’t count. I’ve argued with people that tell me that a character who died in the same questchain as she was introduced was as important if not more so than some of our actually loved faction leaders. I get the want for retribution, but it’s exhausting when every victory the Alliance has won and every loss the Horde suffers gets dismissed for not being satisfying enough.

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