You provided a list of 5 things claiming that all were facts. 2 of them were, and they weren't relevant to disproving that forsaken have free will.
Calia is neutral, Sylvanas is the true evil, mindless skeletons are in fact not mindless and have souls...
Who else has bingo?
Who else has bingo?
11/07/2018 08:06 PMPosted by PiouspelicañCalia is neutral, Sylvanas is the true evil, mindless skeletons are in fact not mindless and have souls...
Who else has bingo?
Dammit, I still need "Spineless Baine" over here.
What about "Nathanos is a self-insert for the Devs" or "Vol'jin was manipulated by the Old Gods?"11/07/2018 08:25 PMPosted by JellexDammit, I still need "Spineless Baine" over here.
I haven't heard anyone call out those ones yet.
Let me just put in my 2 cents in here about what I think about the whole mind control thing and Forsaken "free will".
I am in agreement with the people who say that Forsaken are not forced to serve, Coerced to...but not forced.
At first I was skeptical about the Nelves joining the forsaken and turning against their former allies. But the new info that popped up with Nelf wisps attacking you when you try to raise them, shows to me that in order to raise a Nelf, they have to be willing or at least corrupted enough to accept the raise. Sira and Delaryn clearly showed they had wavering faith with Delaryn even outright cursing Elune for letting this happen. She lost hope, just like Sira did. So when approached to be raised, they were easy pickings. Because once you're raised, you're not who you used to be anymore. Delaryn and Sira aren't Nelves anymore, they are Forsaken and they have no love or attachment to anything they renounced, their Goddess, Tyrande, or any of the friends they had. Once you're dead, a lot of stuff stops meaning anything to you. It seems weird that they'd do a 180, but they've had doubts for a while, a darkness in them and one that was easy to exploit to raise them as willing soldiers. They had a choice to either keep their faith, or throw everything away to get back at all the things that didn't help them in their time of need in a spectacularly petty fashion. That makes them pretty weak and pathetic imho but that's not the point I'm making. My point is that we see they had a choice and it is implied also because of Lorash practically jumping at the chance to be raised for another shot at Malfurion. So as messed up as the writing is, I believe that the risen Nelves chose to serve Sylvannas willingly and it's also why Nathanos jabs at the living Nelves by implying that the lot of them are spineless traitors that are easily broken.
Derek...is an exception to that. Because he is meant to be a pawn... a large one. He is meant to be a sleeper agent sent in to assassinate the Proudmoore family in retaliation for Rastakhan's death. Sylvannas wants to use as little resources as possible for a quick, clean sweep of prominent Alliance heads. Derek is perfect for that because he can get in and get the job done and the fact that he will be killing his own living family members gives it a feeling of a serrated blade. Syl's goal is to cut out hope and this will help greatly. Who knows what would have happened had Syl just let him go back to his family. Maybe they would have welcomed him or maybe they would have killed him immediately. Maybe he would have come back to the Forsaken as most do because they have no where else to go and no one else to turn to. In any case Syl could not take that risk of losing a pawn as good as him, so she holds him against his will to mold him into the blade she'll use to stab the heart of the Alliance with. An effective tactic, even if it's a swing below the belt. She's trying to win, she doesn't care how many feathers she is has to ruffle.
So no, this is not mind control. It is a brainwashing through torture and emotional manipulation. I hold both of those things to be separate definitions. If they are mind controlled to serve her, she'd have no need to go through the trouble of "conditioning him". This is what I believe.
I am in agreement with the people who say that Forsaken are not forced to serve, Coerced to...but not forced.
At first I was skeptical about the Nelves joining the forsaken and turning against their former allies. But the new info that popped up with Nelf wisps attacking you when you try to raise them, shows to me that in order to raise a Nelf, they have to be willing or at least corrupted enough to accept the raise. Sira and Delaryn clearly showed they had wavering faith with Delaryn even outright cursing Elune for letting this happen. She lost hope, just like Sira did. So when approached to be raised, they were easy pickings. Because once you're raised, you're not who you used to be anymore. Delaryn and Sira aren't Nelves anymore, they are Forsaken and they have no love or attachment to anything they renounced, their Goddess, Tyrande, or any of the friends they had. Once you're dead, a lot of stuff stops meaning anything to you. It seems weird that they'd do a 180, but they've had doubts for a while, a darkness in them and one that was easy to exploit to raise them as willing soldiers. They had a choice to either keep their faith, or throw everything away to get back at all the things that didn't help them in their time of need in a spectacularly petty fashion. That makes them pretty weak and pathetic imho but that's not the point I'm making. My point is that we see they had a choice and it is implied also because of Lorash practically jumping at the chance to be raised for another shot at Malfurion. So as messed up as the writing is, I believe that the risen Nelves chose to serve Sylvannas willingly and it's also why Nathanos jabs at the living Nelves by implying that the lot of them are spineless traitors that are easily broken.
Derek...is an exception to that. Because he is meant to be a pawn... a large one. He is meant to be a sleeper agent sent in to assassinate the Proudmoore family in retaliation for Rastakhan's death. Sylvannas wants to use as little resources as possible for a quick, clean sweep of prominent Alliance heads. Derek is perfect for that because he can get in and get the job done and the fact that he will be killing his own living family members gives it a feeling of a serrated blade. Syl's goal is to cut out hope and this will help greatly. Who knows what would have happened had Syl just let him go back to his family. Maybe they would have welcomed him or maybe they would have killed him immediately. Maybe he would have come back to the Forsaken as most do because they have no where else to go and no one else to turn to. In any case Syl could not take that risk of losing a pawn as good as him, so she holds him against his will to mold him into the blade she'll use to stab the heart of the Alliance with. An effective tactic, even if it's a swing below the belt. She's trying to win, she doesn't care how many feathers she is has to ruffle.
So no, this is not mind control. It is a brainwashing through torture and emotional manipulation. I hold both of those things to be separate definitions. If they are mind controlled to serve her, she'd have no need to go through the trouble of "conditioning him". This is what I believe.
Hey: Quick thing to note; we can't trust Blizzard's own word on things. They've lied before. They'll lie again. Not saying they're lying now, but you need to remember Blizzard isn't exactly 100% truthful.
Yeah, it's proven. But my stance stands until they inevitably lie about it again when it happens, not on the possibility that it will later in the future.11/08/2018 08:06 AMPosted by ZekediasHey: Quick thing to note; we can't trust Blizzard's own word on things. They've lied before. They'll lie again. Not saying they're lying now, but you need to remember Blizzard isn't exactly 100% truthful.
With regards to Blizzard not always giving clear or consistent answers to questions about the lore, and sometimes even outright lying, I agree that in the vast majority of cases it's justifiable to be pissed off at them in return.
However, sometimes story writers will lie for a reason that's also somewhat justified and isn't just "Well...uh...I dunno what I'm talking about, so here's this nonsense..." Most commonly, this is done to avoid releasing major spoilers that would be almost completely impossible to avoid without saying something untrue in its place.
What if every time George R.R. Martin got asked about the next Song of Ice & Fire book, he just gave a completely honest and straightforward answer of every part of the story contained within that he'd written so far?
It's the reason that people b!tch and moan, be it genuine or for the sake of some weird ironic humor, about all those datamined broadcast texts on Beta or the PTR. Hell, even Blizzard has referenced that factor multiple times now!
Giving away crucial plot details immediately upon being asked about them, just so that people trying to put the pieces together within the current lore don't have a brain aneurysm, can lead to inadvertently spoiling aspects of the story that will explain exactly what the f*ck is happening later on.
Now, am I saying that such a tactic is Blizzard's "motivation" for making this thread's topic so convoluted and messy for anyone to discuss in our specific circumstances, or even that they do such a thing often enough to warrant taking their supposed ignorance about their own plotlines with a grain of salt?
No, of course I'm not, as I and many others here are well aware that such a case is very improbable. Their recent track-record ("recent" meaning the last 5 years) has shown plenty of evidence that they probably don't even have the mental capacity to pull that off.
Yet despite my acknowledgement of that, in addition to the fact that I'm actually one of the many people who'd probably be super pissed off if this revelation were made under any circumstances, does it not at least seem worthwhile to speculate that Blizzard is both simultaneously moronic and "smart" enough to save the big twist of Sylvanas fully canonically mind-controlling her servants until the end of the expansion?
However, sometimes story writers will lie for a reason that's also somewhat justified and isn't just "Well...uh...I dunno what I'm talking about, so here's this nonsense..." Most commonly, this is done to avoid releasing major spoilers that would be almost completely impossible to avoid without saying something untrue in its place.
What if every time George R.R. Martin got asked about the next Song of Ice & Fire book, he just gave a completely honest and straightforward answer of every part of the story contained within that he'd written so far?
It's the reason that people b!tch and moan, be it genuine or for the sake of some weird ironic humor, about all those datamined broadcast texts on Beta or the PTR. Hell, even Blizzard has referenced that factor multiple times now!
Giving away crucial plot details immediately upon being asked about them, just so that people trying to put the pieces together within the current lore don't have a brain aneurysm, can lead to inadvertently spoiling aspects of the story that will explain exactly what the f*ck is happening later on.
Now, am I saying that such a tactic is Blizzard's "motivation" for making this thread's topic so convoluted and messy for anyone to discuss in our specific circumstances, or even that they do such a thing often enough to warrant taking their supposed ignorance about their own plotlines with a grain of salt?
No, of course I'm not, as I and many others here are well aware that such a case is very improbable. Their recent track-record ("recent" meaning the last 5 years) has shown plenty of evidence that they probably don't even have the mental capacity to pull that off.
Yet despite my acknowledgement of that, in addition to the fact that I'm actually one of the many people who'd probably be super pissed off if this revelation were made under any circumstances, does it not at least seem worthwhile to speculate that Blizzard is both simultaneously moronic and "smart" enough to save the big twist of Sylvanas fully canonically mind-controlling her servants until the end of the expansion?
The simplest answer to this is that in terms of Forsaken when their talking about Mind Control they mean the direct mental domination style of control the Lich King had over them where you have a mental tether that essentially makes you a passenger in your own body obeying your masters mental voice.
Its quite clear the Forsaken have no problems with conventional mind control and brainwashing when there were living thralls in Undercity, throwing Koitra in the dungeon to fix him was considered acceptable, and Abominations are implied to have a degree of brain surgery done before animation.
Its quite clear the Forsaken have no problems with conventional mind control and brainwashing when there were living thralls in Undercity, throwing Koitra in the dungeon to fix him was considered acceptable, and Abominations are implied to have a degree of brain surgery done before animation.
i think humans at least are easier to rise than nelves, nelves become wisps and maybe they can choose whether being or not undead, humans don't have such choice
as we saw ingame at the starting forsaken zone:
as we saw ingame at the starting forsaken zone:
Example: (rejection)
Aradne says: Rise from the grave and serve the Dark Lady!
Risen Dead says: I never asked for this! Leave me alone! (enrages, and transforms into a Mindless Zombie and runs away.)
2nd example: (agrees)
Aradne says: Waken, sleeper.
Risen Dead says: If the Banshee Queen has offered me this chance, I will gladly serve. (walks off towards the barracks.)
3rd example: (suicide)
Aradne says: Rise from Death's slumber and join your brothers!
Risen Dead says: What...what's happening to me? Why have you done this to me?
Risen Dead says: I should be dead and to death I will return! (commits suicide.)
11/07/2018 04:03 PMPosted by GalevinIt seems a lot of people don’t quite understand what’s happening with Derek.
When he’s raised from the dead he is very clearly himself, he isn’t raised as a mindless thrall, bound to Sylvanas’ will, he’s raised as who he was in life.
Forsaken still have a choice once they’re raised and they maintain free will, Derek isn’t being enslaved through necromantic magics, Sylvanas is just torturing him mentally to break him and turn him into a pawn.
Oh hes not mind controlled. Hell just be educated and brainwashed by sylvanas personally to murder he family. We get it, you want us to believe forsaken aren't brainwashed just from being raised.
You get that.
The point now, is she conditions her forsaken with threats of torture and light knows what else so they obey her. Some come back happy go murder for the dark lady saving her the conditioning but we need to see the free will aspect is pretty much dead with derek.
11/07/2018 04:59 PMPosted by Deathisfinal11/07/2018 04:23 PMPosted by TrengThe sky is green.
Not quite the sky.
https://media.mmo-champion.com/images/news/2018/november/LoadScreenDarkshoreWarfront.jpg
Oh man, the health insurance premiums for the Night Elves are going to go through the roof
11/09/2018 04:30 PMPosted by Azsharin11/07/2018 04:59 PMPosted by Deathisfinal...
Not quite the sky.
https://media.mmo-champion.com/images/news/2018/november/LoadScreenDarkshoreWarfront.jpg
Oh man, the health insurance premiums for the Night Elves are going to go through the roof
What roof? Didn't Saurfang and Sylvanas decide that the Night Elves should live without roofs.
This one might be a little out there but hear me out. What if all Forsaken, including Sylvanas, are being mind-controlled by Bolvar? We know from the Death Knight campaign that the Knights of the Ebon Blade slowly became his thralls after they agreed to work with him at the beginning of Legion which proves that he can bring "free" undead back into the fold. And much of Sylvanas's current mind set came about after she accepted the Val'kyr, who are basically the Lich King's will made manifest, into her ranks. It would explain everything.