[SPOILERS] Baine rescue cinematic

[Vespero-durotan (Vespero)]

Also the second Baince becomes a warchief - i delete all my horde toons (or, atleast race change them to alliance, atleast alliance is always same and good)

Nice of you to reward Blizzard doing something you hate by giving them a bunch of money…

[Galenorn-wyrmrest-accord (Galenorn)]

Jainas new neutral stancee feels so tremendously forced it is ridiculous

Her lines are probably the part of the cinematic that grates on me the most.

We all have blood on our hands.

There’s a difference in the blood. Some have the blood of innocents on their hands. Some have the blood of monsters on their hands, from trying to eke some small modicum of justice out of atrocity after atrocity after atrocity.

That World Tree did not fall, because the Horde and the Alliance worked together.

Um… The other World Tree only fell because the Horde attacked it.

[Murdra-wildhammer (Murdra)]

Or Malfurion didn’t get the memo that Garrosh was behind the attack but I appreciate your optimism in trying to rationalize this.

[Ironbulwalk-frostmourne (Ironbulwalk)]

Filthy traitors. Sylvanus better have a damn good plan.

[Gornur-nerzhul (Gornur)]

The Shattering novel revealed to us it was the Twilight’s Hammer. We just don’t know how anyone discovered it since they were posing as a group Horde orcs. So it’s just not trust Malfurion declaring it was the Twilight Hammer out of the blue.

The problem is that the Twilight’s Hammer is omitted from the Chronicles but Blizzard has gone records that events not recorded in the Chronicles still happened but then they actually had Garrosh order Horde forces into Ashenvale. Which caused it become a bit murky.

My explanation is the only way I can rationalize these two canon events still occurring as is.

[Gladwell-wyrmrest-accord (Gladwell)]

I had a whole post about this in the other thread about the same subject.

@Gladwell-wyrmrest-accord

To specify why I say this is beyond absurd;

1. What sort of justification is ‘Thunderbluff is the enemy if Baine escaped custody!!!’? How could anyone be so naive to think that the Tauren aligned with the Horde would ever side with them if the Warchief set fire to it? Is this some Deus Vult “God will know his own” bit they’re trying to pitch to further add onto the Horde “ArE We ThE BaDdIeS?!” bull(profanity) that the Horde audience has gotten this entire expansion? Why would Sylvanas even do something so hilariously shortsighted? Sylvanas’ character assassination is ridiculously out of whack. Sylvanas, as a character true to her design, would never do something to insanely stupid that’d sacrifice both a key to power and all the assets it provides.
2. How would they put the assets forward for assaulting a city built atop a plateau? There is an entire war that has to be fought still, even if they didn’t move on the city and instead elected to try and starve them out (a failing effort, given that they’re so steeped in druidic and shamanistic heritage that famine in a bountiful place like Mulgore seems unlikely to work). The Horde’s currently on the backfoot, it has to deliver a win so devastating that they can see to internal political affairs and settle other issues without an outside party taking advantage of the Horde’s discombobulated state (chiefly, the Alliance, who has every reason to dismantle the Horde after Teldrassil.)

Like… seriously? What the (profanity) is this? Who thought this was a good idea? Who nodded their heads and said; ‘this would be a great story :)’.

Granted, Thrall could be full of (profanity) and would be wrong to assume Thunderbluff is a target, but everything else we’ve gotten turned out to be exactly as bad as initially thought, so, like, I’m not inclined to believe they’re just writing Thrall to not be the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Now, more than ever, we need dialogue between the writing team and the community.

[Jandarus-dathremar (Jandarus)]

How the @#$ could she ever siege this mountaintop capital in the heart of Kalimdor? Won’t the Tauren turn the elevator off? I’d sooner believe she can attack Stormwind next patch. At least then we know she can raise some more troops.

Sylvanas needs to just pop a couple of those nifty inter-continental ballista catapults on top of Orgrimmar, and she’ll be able to burn Thunder Bluff done in a jiffy! After all, distance is no longer an issue. Hell, she should take out Stormwind if she gets a strong westerly wind.

[Jandarus-dathremar (Jandarus)]

It’s nice to see everyone working together [Xera voice] as we were always going to[/Xera voice]

The Night Elves have had their revenge, the Sunreavers have been shown up as unthinking zealots to be put down and all the wrongs have been squared off nicely.

The Alliance and the Horde are putting aside their few remaining differences and when Sylvanas is removed from power, everything will be alright. As we all know, Sylvanas, and only Sylvanas, was responsible for the burning of Teldrassil. No-one else was involved in the planning or execution of that atrocity. Not that it was really an atrocity. Hardly any Night Elves really died. Possibly none. But it was a nice tree, so it was a shame to burn it.

It’s time to take a deep breath and [Xera voice] join together as you were always meant to, to combat the Old Gods and Sylvanas probably and you will like it and you will stay subbed.[/Xera voice]

We all knew the Horde and Alliance would make peace before the end of this xpac. That was always the destination. The only thing new today is we can see the path to it a little more clearly.

[Khazlei-korgath (Khazlei)]

Here’s how I think the various Horde races(Non AR) perceive honor:

Orcs:Reverence to the point of suicidal idealization
Tauren: Same as the Orcs but much less physically combative about it.
Trolls: Will ignore it if it negatively impacts the Troll in question’s tribe. Fairly individual otherwise.
Forsaken: “Honor? Is that efficient enough to save me time in securing that Alliance fort? I thought not.”
Goblin: it doesn’t put money on the table or explode, it’s not worth having.
Blood Elves: “Honor is Great! Sometimes… So long as it doesn’t put me or Silvermoon in danger”

Pandaren: “Is Honor like Harmony? Because I’m all about that! And beer, of course!”

So a very much mixed bag when it comes to the Core Races if I’m not totally misreading things.

In another expansion I would have loved the Thrall/Jaina convo here. Just strip away the background with Baine, Sadfang, and whatshisname, and paste it over a better story. Even now, with the crap festering in the background, I still have to resist peering at the screen through shipping goggles!

[Laeth-hakkar]

Forsaken: “Honor? Is that efficient enough to save me time in securing that Alliance fort? I thought not.”

We come with the “Die with Honor” perquisite already completed, we don’t need to grind it anymore.

[Murdra-wildhammer (Murdra)]

Wasn’t Chronicles suppose to clarify things instead of making things more confusing?

[Daharahj-proudmoore]

This plot is so cliche I don’t think I could care less if I tried.

[Arlifrex-moon-guard (Arlifrex)]

Yes, but also no.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

Sylvanas has nothing to do with my response to you. You asked what anti-thematic reason Blizzard comes up with my why literally any Forsaken should ever care about Thunder Bluff, when it is well within some Forsaken’s already established thematic to care about Thunder Bluff.

[Tannaril-area-52 (Tannaril)]

Ah! Never mind the facts, someone posted a cute image!

Do you have any facts to back up your assertion that it is a fact? Any charts or statistics? I’m genuinely curious. Where are you getting this fact from?

You mean other than the fact that all the civilians had been evacuated from Theramore? The fact that the quests in Theramore show civilians being killed?

Do keep in mind that Garrosh captured the civilians that were ‘spared’ from Theramore off the coast of Tanaris and took them back to Orgrimmar to kill them off.

Which wasn’t part of the attack on Theramore. Everyone talks about how the mana bomb was a horrible thing, but Jaina (the noble leader we are suppose to gladly follow) killed more civilians than the mana bomb.

So what I’m really asking you is, where do you have a source of the number of civilians killed in the purge of Dalaran vs. Theramore. Because as far as I know there’s no concrete numbers given either way. So you claiming it is a fact is hyperbole.

The number of civilians killed in Theramore is zero. The number in Dalaran is not zero. More will killed in Dalaran.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

No I don’t, because there is no evidence of that. The rouges are, in Horde content, not there to kill civilians and, as much as Alliance posters like to insist, Alliance content does not constitute canon over Horde content.

You were comparing Alliance content and Horde content in your “lesser pill” statement. If Alliance content doesn’t constitute canon over Horde content, Horde content doesn’t constitute canon over Alliance content, and thus in Alliance content Saurfang killed civilians, and the Alliance player is right there with him as much as the Horde player is with Jaina.

[Vildaryon-moon-guard (Vildaryon)]

Which wasn’t part of the attack on Theramore.

yikes. nice logic you have. you’re right, those were just unrelated events. it doesn’t matter that civilians from Theramore died, just that they didn’t die in the initial bombing. Gotcha.

[Nearo-emerald-dream (Nearo)]

I was worried they’d do a total 180 on Jaina’s character after the Siege of Dazar’Alor and her “We’d be no better than the Banshee” garbage.

Really disappointed… I wish they hadn’t shoehorned her in as Lord Admiral of Kul Tiras.

[Tannaril-area-52 (Tannaril)]

No I don’t, because there is no evidence of that. The rouges are, in Horde content, not there to kill civilians and, as much as Alliance posters like to insist, Alliance content does not constitute canon over Horde content.

You were comparing Alliance content and Horde content in your “lesser pill” statement. If Alliance content doesn’t constitute canon over Horde content, Horde content doesn’t constitute canon over Alliance content, and thus in Alliance content Saurfang killed civilians, and the Alliance player is right there with him as much as the Horde player is with Jaina.

I’m not sure what you mean. If you want to argue that Blizzard is making you team up with someone who, regardless of the what happened in canon, you were shown as killing civilians, then OK. But Blizzard does that to both sides and it makes people like Jaina and Genn more evil along with Saurfang.

[Tannaril-area-52 (Tannaril)]

Which wasn’t part of the attack on Theramore.

yikes. nice logic you have. you’re right, those were just unrelated events. it doesn’t matter that civilians from Theramore died, just that they didn’t die in the initial bombing. Gotcha.

Your sarcasm doesn’t cover the fact that your comments are misdirection.

The event that Baine was explicitly apologizing for was what happened at Theramore. The mana bomb and all the Jaina cinematics about how it made her sad. An event that Jaina herself has exceeded, in civilian death, by her own direction action but which seems to not require anything but a vague “we all have blood on our hands”.

What he wasn’t talking about was the killing of civilians that happened someplace else and which Theramore citizens were only a part of. Something that happened after most of the Horde had explicitly split and which also included Horde civilians.