I mean… you guys were aware that Gallywix likes gaudy things right? I mean it could a situation like this.
GW: Point the cannon at Stormwind!!
Peon: K
GW: We now need to point it else where!
Peon: uh…
GW: let me guess, it’s the pipsqueek life support thing all over again that you didn’t think about, did ja?
Peon:…yeah
To be fair, the Goblin PC has every reason to chuck Gallywix inside the muzzle of that canon and fire it. Since we can’t do that AND he doesn’t want to pay us fairly, we just do the absolute minimum amount of work required so that we don’t get yelled at “at the time”
“Just following orders boss, and your budget! You didn’t say nothin about wheels.”
I’m a little surprised that you are going to explicitly put words in my mouth.
The mana bombing of Theramore is supposedly a great crime that Blizzard feels requires requires an explicit apology for. Apparently what Jaina did is something that can be waved away by a vague generality. The fact that more civilians died in the Purge of Dalaran than did in the bomb of Theramore is a cogent point on that.
All the other atrocities in Wow lore on both sides doesn’t change that. Though I would also argue that having the Horde apologize for everything it did while letter the Alliance skip away is the sort of thing that will never bring me back to the game.
She might have been the one to start the war and she might have been the one to order the tree to burn, but, like, it’s a little too late to sue for peace. The damage is already done. The enemy side will want due retribution and no amount of apologies will make up for the people who aren’t there anymore. The ideal move isn’t to turn on Sylvanas and evict her, the ideal move is to fight the war to a standstill (or to an advantage) and negotiate for peace, because peace won’t be obtained by well wishes and smiles. It’ll be obtained by a mutual understanding that further hostilities leads to further ruin, while peace offers prosperity.
Saurfang wanting to oust Sylvanas because she misrepresents the values and interests of the Horde is fair game, but what I will always say is this; he’s being made a patsy and somehow he’s blind to it. He gets let go unconditionally, by the leader of the enemy (who has just been HORRIBLY wronged), who sells him a pep-talk about how he can’t stop Sylvanas and needs help. So, Saurfang, who’s already raw about the matter, is let go ‘unconditionally’, who’s agenda will immediately to oust a leader in the middle of a war. A leader who knows what assets are deployed where, what’s immediately on the board and what’s in motion. This isn’t during a period of stillness where a new leader can take the seat, learn all of this and resume function, mind you, this is in the middle of a war, where losing such an asset could be disastrous, because now that side’s playing catch-up while the other side never had to stop, providing a huge advantage on the lance board. Heck, they could even just swoop in and coup de grace Saurfang & co, because they’d be weakened from fighting a civil war.
But the Alliance & Horde have all the reason to hate each other now, for at least a generation at best. They should not be working together. The Horde should be working to win (or at least stop being on the backfoot before coming to the negotiation table), the matter of Baine’s execution should be a Horde affair, the later ousting of Sylvanas should be a Horde affair and the Alliance should have zero (0) interest in helping the Horde after all that’s transpired.
Sylvanas did not orchestrate the Wrathgate. I don’t care what Afrasiabi implies, that’d be pants-on-head stupid to get her city raided in the midst of a conflict with her immortal enemy, for no payout whatsoever.
Except that wanting war is perfectly fine when it’s anyone not part of a playable faction. They advertised this expansion as being filled with faction pride.
Gallywix not giving you anymore funds doesn’t mean Sylvanas won’t give you more funds…
Not really. First off Arthas was the only thing that mattered then. Sacrificing the Alliance and Horde armies to draw Arthas out into the open where the blight could destroy him is perfectly within Sylvanas’ reasoning.
She was planning on suicide after destroying Arthas remember? If Arthas had died there at Wrathgate then she wouldn’t have cared what came after. It was only after getting a taste of the afterlife awaiting her (real afterlife or a deception by unknown parties doesn’t matter) that she needed to find a means of immortality.
Of course she wouldn’t have put all her eggs in one basket (Blight/Wrathgate) and would have had no problem sacrificing Putress and some forsaken to escape reprisal even with damage to UC.
Varian losing his cool was probably as much a surprise to Sylvanas as it was to everyone else.
I … generally agree. I at the very least believe she was concretely aware of the Wrathgate incident before it happened. She may have even been directly behind it, considering that YES she did develop the Blight to kill beings like Arthas; and YES she did fully intend to off herself once Arthas died (thus, dodging any and all consequences for her act … and sort of ironically sentencing her “Mongrel Race of Rotten Corpses” to suffer those consequences in her stead).
I think it’ll be addressed in the game. I bet Magister Hathorel will be a raid boss when we take down Sylvanas.
So your solution is to hide behind a technicality in a previous statement or are you actually championing what Garrosh and the Horde did.
I just don’t understand.
What is your end game here? What are you trying to convince readers like me of?
Or you are not trying to convince anyone and this is just a rant for rant’s sake so I should not really consider it as anything designed to be comprehensible or convincing.
I have seen the same events as you have. You are not offering new information and neither are you offering a unique perspective.
To me it seems like you are blowing one thing out of proportion for some unknown agenda and at the same time dodge between semantics and guidelines you created for some unknown narrative you are trying to push.
Why are you doing this?
For what purpose would someone, who’s entire career revolved around strategy, decide it’d be best to go for an ‘all or nothing’ play? She’s armed with a lot of knowledge as a leader, especially how much is needed to kill Arthas.
Now, having the blight readied for if/when the line was broken would be fair game and a /lot/ easier to defend if ever put before questioning. It’s entirely possible the assaulting forces could have killed Arthas then and there. Firing the blight and killing both the parties involved with the assault, her own assets and severing all possible chances of using the involved parties further, on the slightest hope that it’d kill Arthas on the spot, is a strategic disaster.
One that a master manipulator could exploit to fulfill an agenda, with more or less ease of access in twisting people to his agenda without natural social coercing- a Dreadlord like Varimathras, who had “years of planning” on how he could do it.
Sylvanas’ original character design was always evil, of that there is no doubt, but she was not designed stupid. Intelligent, subtle evil was her MO, always doing something in a way that can be protected if ever questioned, always masquerading ill intentions under something unassuming.
We need Gazlowe in charge, he gives his workers paid leave.
I agree, Gazlowe is best Goblin and with him as Warchief, the Horde would run smoooooth.
Well, the Wrathgate attack and the coup in Undercity aren’t the same thing. Planning the former doesn’t by definition mean she intended for the latter to happen.
If anything, Varimathras may have figured Sylvanas attacking everyone at the Wrathgate to get at Arthas was the perfect opportunity for his coup, as it would likely cause the Alliance to retaliate and leave both factions preoccupied while he established a new Legion foothold in Lordaeron. He just didn’t seem to count on Varian putting direct retribution on hold long enough to assault the Undercity parallel to the Horde’s attack instead.
Something to also keep in mind about pre-WotLK Sylvanas is that numerous things poonted toward an intention to use the plague against the living - Horde and Alliance alike - once it was finished, as part of taking down the Scourge. Except she didn’t choose when Arthas woke and forced a war in Northrend, so the Forsaken ended up railroaded into racing north with an unfinished superweapon.
Sylvanas’ outlook before her brush with final death was extremely nihilistic. “Ideally” if things had gone as planned, the RAS would have probably perfected the plague first, then used it to eradicate the living so the Scourge would be denied most sources of fresh troops when the Forsaken finally took their weapon north to take Arthas down. In a way, the Wrathgate could be extrapolated as a sort of forced microcosm of her intentions for dealing with the Scourge worldwide when she still had an indefinite timetable: perfect the plague, unleash it on the world, and then take the plague to Northrend to finish the job. I.e. everyone gets plagued to ensure that Arthas dies.
In that vein, she likely still sees the Horde as a convenient buffer between herself and her overt enemies, to be kept around until the Forsaken can make do without it, at which point the living Horde will find itself in her crosshairs along with everyone else. The primary difference being that rather than using the Horde until her Forsaken can take down Arthas and the Scourge themselves, she’s now using the Horde until her Forsaken can perpetually stave off her own final death themselves.
Once that’s the case, the Horde will become one more potential threat to be eliminated.
The post you replied to points out it wasn’t an “All or nothing Play”. Sacrificing Putress and company was her fall back option if the blight didn’t succeed. Those armies at Wrathgate wasn’t the entirety of neither the Alliance nor the Horde.
Using the blight at Wrathgate is considered a strategic disaster only if one cared about surviving after destroying Arthas. Sylvanas didn’t care about that. Not at that time.
This might be the first time I would ever consider her keeping a dreadlord as her majordomo as a smart move (rather than an extremely stupid one) as it would have made her “blame them” fallback much more believable.
And Thrall didn’t have the Kor’kron assigned to UC for a vacation after all this.
Sylvanas put the torch to Teldrassil but it was only because Saurfang paved the way for her with the invasion he planned.
Saurfang deserves as much blame for all of this as Sylvanas.
Bottom line: players shouldn’t be forced to work with either him or Jaina.
At least Saurfang should try to atone for his part of the War of the Thorns first, then Night Elves could work with him (even if players might not want to still, story doesn’t take into account all opinions).
But I don’t think Blizzard is going to bother to do even that.
It’s amazing Thrall mentioned Teldrassil at all.
The Night Elves opinion is the only opinion that should matter here.
The Orc head Tyrande threw in the moonwell should have been Saurfang’s.
Do we know if that was any specific orc or nah?