Soul Cleave Thoughts

(Sigma) #1

We’re testing an increase to Soul Cleave damage in the Rise of Azshara PTR, and we haven’t yet fully written developers’ notes on it. I want to give a little context for it, since this is an issue that relates to many class changes.

A common reaction to buffing a certain spell or talent is “you’re buffing something we don’t use much.” That is, when if we buff a talent that’s not the “best” or buff an ability that’s currently a small part of the rotation, it’s not a large increase to total damage. Sometimes the goal of a buff is to increase the total DPS of a spec, and sometimes it’s to better internally balance something about the rotation or talents. In the former case, we usually buff a slate of prominent spells. In the latter, by definition, we’re buffing something that’s not being used heavily or is being eclipsed by other spells.

Currently, Spirit Bomb is very popular and causes a rotation where you want to consume nearly every Fragment with Spirit Bomb rather than in any other way. This pushes Soul Cleave pretty far down in value. This is an issue with Spirit Bomb as a talent, but our intent isn’t to upend this commonly-used playstyle right now. A buff to Soul Cleave makes the button compete a little better in between Spirit Bombs, even at the cost of consuming some Fragments that otherwise would have gone into Spirit Bomb. It’s also a side benefit that this is a straightforward buff for people playing talents other than Spirit Bomb.

(Turbocharged) #2

So this is kinda a quick fix for now until major mechanical changes will be made during the next alpha/beta? Basically, to make what we have available, more viable.

(Ravatin) #3

Buffing the damage in Soul Cleave is good for the overall dps, however the outrage is more about the lack of defences that VHD need. The comunity has not seen or heard that there will be changes to help VHD be more in line with other tanks.

In regards to the buff to Soul Cleave is more of is this it? With no other information about how the spec will be in 8.2 it makes people upset, because buffs or nerfs are not told in advance so people think that’s it. If this is not all there is to the VHD in 8.2 it would be helpfull to let the comunnity know.

We where told the they are aware of the problem outside of Demon Spikes. Will there be any other changes regarding the issue that has been acknowledged?

(Failedwizard) #4

I’m just happy to see you communicating with the playerbase and specifically calling for feedback on a particular ability, hopefully we can see some dialogue about the issues with Arcane Missiles in BfA (not intending to attempt to divert attention away from Vengeance Demon Hunters, they desperately need these kinds of discussions right now).

We love talking about our specs and classes, it’s what we’re passionate about :slight_smile:

(Drezwazluz) #5

Mate, there already are. Have you not been paying attention?

(Làz) #6

soul cleave needs a massive increase in healing done, then it will be useable. Since this is specifically about soul cleave ill leave it for that. Without that increase in healing… i cant see a reason to waste my souls on it. Or change it to use rage instead of souls.


Or you could you know, just make Soul Bomb a baseline ability (this opens Gluttony to being viable again which will be nice with the Meta buffs soon).

While you’re at it:

Give them back Charred Warglaives back as a passive
Give them Blurr as a defensive CD alongside with Meta

(Turbocharged) #8

Yeah, SC using only pain is a really good idea. This would make it a good pain dump so you didnt overcap and it didnt feel bad using souls as it is now. This would only work if SB was baseline or you had another “soul” using ability (that SB overwrote if you took that talent). This would give you Shear/Fracture (I want Fracture baseline) as your pain/soul generator, SB (baseline or as a talent overwrite of one additional ability) as your main soul/pain user and then SC as a filler/pain dump.

SB should absolutely be baseline. Blur would be nice. Even if it wasnt as powerful as Havoc Blur, you could still have another defensive to weave in and out here and there.

Meta definitely needs something - DS for duration would be awesome. That would make the Gluttony talent better. Fel Devastation would still be garbage in that tier but its a start.

(Jape) #9

Gluttony is just a bad talent. It would be more interesting if Meta had a real impact on dps.


My problem is the fact that, yeah our damage is low and this helps, but i’m also getting hit like a truck, and doing mediocre healing at the same time, I do appreciate that you are communicating though, feels nice.

(Ravatin) #11

Never said that they are not here. What I was saying is that it’s not enough. If you are saying the changes that they made are enough to resolve the issue without Demon Spikes, then that is where we disagree.

(Drezwazluz) #12

The only tank that out-heals vdh is bdk, and it’s not by miles. Just something to keep in mind.

You asked for changes for outside of demon spikes. Base armor has been significantly increased outside demon spikes.

(Ravatin) #13

So to be clear you are saying the changes are enough to help bring VHD in line with the other tanks?

(Drezwazluz) #14

Unless you can quote that, no.

(Ravatin) #15

that’s all I was trying to ask. It just sounded like you where saying it was enough.

(Drezwazluz) #16

The way you phrased your question implied you thought this was the first round of changes, not the third.

(Ravatin) #17

Oh no sorry it came out like that. It was just letting them know more than anything on why.

(Varrow) #18

While I appreciate Sigma’s post I think this highlights a very overlying issue with class design in general. Talent balance is pretty bad for almost all specs, and abilities have been left behind in the wake of the great pruning of legendaries and artifacts.

Classes need to play more like they played in Antorus with Artifacts and Legendaries and there needs to be less expansion rental class systems that continually leave our specs gutted as soon as the expansion ends.


So a buff is a buff. That’s nice.

I don’t really see how giving Soul Cleave a damage buff is going to change the RNG aspect of how Gluttony performs. Not to mention the fact that it does nothing to make Fel Devastation more competitive.

If we’re talking about using soul cleaves in between a 4 or 5 fragment spirit bomb, that’s just encouraging bad game play at any level even if you buff the damage.

The only thing is going to do is increase the passive healing VDH does slightly because we’ll be dealing more dmg on the pain dump portion of the spirit bomb rotation due to how frailty works.


It’s like one has ordered pizza and he is served with a nice frothy cup of Coffee and server makes on insist how coffee is better for him than a pizza