It's a synonym for "Mary Sue," and can be defined as "a character you don't like and want to dismiss out of hand rather than engaging in actual discussion."10/09/2018 06:47 AMPosted by YritheI'm not sure if he's a self-insert. What is the proper definition of that term anyway?
Everyone hating Nathanos is going to be pissed when he leads the forsaken after Sylvanas is killed/exiled.
He is actually.
It's been traced down over the last week or so, he's the self-insert of the lead story writer, the one who wrote the Nathanos short story.
Bad fanfiction explains the entire problem in this expansion's story. Can't say I'm surprised.
It's been traced down over the last week or so, he's the self-insert of the lead story writer, the one who wrote the Nathanos short story.
Bad fanfiction explains the entire problem in this expansion's story. Can't say I'm surprised.
You people are obsessed with pinning bad writing on one person. This is a team. Blizzard agreed to this. Stop trolling one person.
10/09/2018 09:51 AMPosted by CelandiaIt's a synonym for "Mary Sue," and can be defined as "a character you don't like and want to dismiss out of hand rather than engaging in actual discussion."10/09/2018 06:47 AMPosted by YritheI'm not sure if he's a self-insert. What is the proper definition of that term anyway?
I think it also provides a rationalization for hating/harassing the devs. If the writing is bad not because crafting a narrative for WoW is incredibly difficult, but instead because of a dev's sexual kinks or emotional immaturity or personal narcissism, then it's easier to justify the vitriol.
People want to hate the devs, so they come up with these stories to dehumanize them.
10/09/2018 10:39 AMPosted by ArlifrexYou people are obsessed with pinning bad writing on one person. This is a team. Blizzard agreed to this. Stop trolling one person.
Blizzard agreed to it but that doesn't mean it isn't an issue, if it exists.
We demonized Kosak for less.
I think you're reading too much into peoples' jabs at genuinely !@#$ writing. What however do you believe makes writing for WoW more difficult than anything else in particular? It's as linear a narrative as it gets and we're held along for the ride. The only difficulty I know of is that the writers have to maintain some level of narrative consistency and from characters' relative power levels, motivations, and LOCATIONS they seem incapable of doing that.10/09/2018 10:51 AMPosted by FeldaranI think it also provides a rationalization for hating/harassing the devs. If the writing is bad not because crafting a narrative for WoW is incredibly difficult, but instead because of a dev's sexual kinks or emotional immaturity or personal narcissism, then it's easier to justify the vitriol.
People want to hate the devs, so they come up with these stories to dehumanize them.
It does have a meaning, and it's meant to be insulting in this particular instance (though self-insertion is not always a bad thing), and good, credible evidence has been presented.10/09/2018 07:56 AMPosted by CarmageddonSeriously, though, this thread is awful. Words and expressions have meaning, and "self-insert" means exactly what it says. And it's an insulting suggestion. So if you don't have good, credible evidence, then don't hit the "enter" key.
When the new Lead Narrative Designer for the game takes a character, remodels him to physically resemble an idealized version of himself (something he explicitly pointed out on social media), writes a story about that character banging a faction leader and getting magically enhanced to be more powerful (and better looking) than the rest of his race, semi-RPs as that character on Twitter, and plasters that character all over every inch of the narrative he's in charge of -- consistently portraying the character as outwitting and outsnarking and outfighting everything from demi-gods to player characters -- it's not simply a case of "oh, you guys just don't like the character".
Like, what would you consider incontrovertible "proof", Carm? The, "it's like looking into a Dark Mirror" tweet was the closest thing you'll ever see to a writer saying, "this character is my avatar".
I'm not sure why folks are being so defensive about this. It's one of the most blatant cases of self-insertion I've ever seen, and it's not like the guy is being accused of a terrible crime. Self-insertion is a really common literary device, and it's often completely harmless. Steve's just taking it to an obnoxious extreme.
What however do you believe makes writing for WoW more difficult than anything else in particular?
First, I'd argue that writing "anything in particular" is itself a Herculean task, and that people have inadequate respect for writers.
Second:
WoW is a platform where writers have access to few of the traditional framing and descriptive devices for creating emotional effects. Specifically:
- The devs cannot describe character reactions directly or to color a scene in terms of the character's internal subjectivity the way a novelist can.
- The devs cannot control camera angles or framing with much precision, and they can't do anything very clever with editing to convey emotion, the way film makers can.
- Devs cannot use cell framing, perspective, body language, or facial expression to convey emotion the way graphic novelists can.
- The chief tools for expression in the game are the mechanics themselves, which are designed not primarily as storytelling devices but as "fun gameplay." Outside of combat mechanics, story has a very limited space to unfold. While the Devs can use gameplay mechanics to convey character or story, this requires being exceptionally creative and even then often feels clunky.
A lot of "good stories" would look pretty dumb if you abstracted the plot from writers' framing and layering techniques and played them out with WoW's sock-puppet characters while the player futzed around with the camera.
Second, both the audience and development cycle of a game of WoW's size make writing very difficult
- WoW is aimed at an audience of millions with wildly different desires vis a vis the story. As this forum alone illustrates, balancing the desires of every player is impossible, especially once faction conflict is part of the mix.
- The audience's reaction to gameplay will vary depending on its in-game presentation. However, once you have gameplay you can show to players as a realistic representation of what the game will actually like, you're so far down the development cycle that it's difficult to make significant changes. This is not a challenge, say, novelists face vis a vis beta and alpha readers. Even film is given to rewrites moreso than AAA games.
- WoW writers are working in a corporate environment as only one member of a team with a lore that is 15 years old involving characters who have been portrayed by perhaps dozen of writers, all as auxiliary support to the real devs, those who work on gameplay. This combines the worst features of screenwriting and comic books and adds challenges unique to videogames to produce what I can only imagine is a hellish writer's room.
10/09/2018 11:36 AMPosted by Kazala
I'm not sure why folks are being so defensive about this. It's one of the most blatant cases of self-insertion I've ever seen, and it's not like the guy is being accused of a terrible crime. Self-insertion is a really common literary device, and it's often completely harmless. Steve's just taking it to an obnoxious extreme.
Welcome to the Story Forum where people will rage about author avatars and self-inserts until it targets a character they enjoy/related to a character they enjoy.
Intellectual dishonesty is found in abundance here.
First, I'd argue that writing "anything in particular" is itself a Herculean task at which the vast majority of people fail spectacularly the vast majority of the time. People have inadequate respect for writers.Mediocre writers perhaps. Golden is occasionally a good example of such given the way she's flanderized Anduin into a "peace above all else" sort of character despite everything in Legion building up to him finally understanding that it's not always possible. I'm surprised she even buckled enough to make him admit such with the caveat "As long as Sylvanas is Warchief."
This much I can understand. It's a jarring experience to go from something like Final Fantasy XIV where the characters are all much more... expressive, let's say. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOeQ9-0PTE8 ) So it's a fair point.10/09/2018 11:37 AMPosted by FeldaranWoW is a platform where writers have access to few of the traditional framing and descriptive devices for creating emotional effects. Specifically:
However in regards to this storyline we're not complaining about characters' reactions or emotions or deep inner thoughts. The complaints are about story beats and narrative consistency. The rest are for the books that half the playerbase won't read anyway, sadly.
I think blaming audience perception for poor writing quality is among the laziest of cop outs if I'm being entirely honest. The audience is under no obligation to like your work or see it as you see it, it's up to you, the writer.10/09/2018 11:37 AMPosted by FeldaranSecond, both the audience and development cycle of a game of WoW's size make writing very difficult
The scope of WoW's development however is an interesting point that Metzen touched on in an interview with WoWhead (while defending a film that did the above, mind you) when he claimed that the writers are little more than translators in a sense, that they "dramatize" the lore that the dev team had made up years in advance. Honestly this one I can get, however it only (potentially) shifts the incompetence from the writers to whoever came up with such a stupid system depending on the quality of whatever these years-old plots the writers are given.
10/09/2018 10:00 AMPosted by BolfeEveryone hating Nathanos is going to be pissed when he leads the forsaken after Sylvanas is killed/exiled.
Nah, Nathanos doesn't give a !@#$ about that stuff. If he lost Sylvanas he'd probably just kill himself.
Forget WoW, writing for games in general is far more difficult than you're giving credit for.10/09/2018 10:59 AMPosted by JerolanWhat however do you believe makes writing for WoW more difficult than anything else in particular?
Even after her last words to him are "Don't let de Forsaken die dis dey..."?10/09/2018 12:01 PMPosted by Myrothan10/09/2018 10:00 AMPosted by BolfeEveryone hating Nathanos is going to be pissed when he leads the forsaken after Sylvanas is killed/exiled.
Nah, Nathanos doesn't give a !@#$ about that stuff. If he lost Sylvanas he'd probably just kill himself.
10/09/2018 12:11 PMPosted by HahahahahahaEven after her last words to him are "Don't let de Forsaken die dis dey..."?
Probably. He's pretty much only in it for her. He'd die right now if she said she wanted to pass on, war efforts be damned.
10/09/2018 06:39 AMPosted by Kyveli-Playing a central role in the story
-Has a completely custom model
-Shown to be one of the most powerful characters in the setting for no reason
-More focus on his romantic relationship with Sylvanas
-Said writer saying that it's like looking in a mirror
Nathanos was a snarky douche in Classic, but he ultimately came to respect the player character. Despite you now being his equal(Champion of the Banshee Queen), if not superior, he still shows you nothing but contempt.
I can say with complete honesty, without a hint of sarcasm that I would get more catharsis out of killing Nathanos than I would Sylvanas.
The only other character I've ever found to be this gratingly annoying was Holden Caufield.
At the very least Captain Edgelord needs to slink back into obscurity and hug his Sylvanas bodypillow for all eternity.
I don't know enough about Danusaur (or whatever he's called) to call him a self insert.
I could see him being a creators pet, but self insert is a large claim, I think it is just far more likely he adores the character.
I could see him being a creators pet, but self insert is a large claim, I think it is just far more likely he adores the character.
This is probably the more reasonable claim that I would go with. He has some serious plot armor and power scaling issues that are only undercut by the self-insert claims, as hilarious as I think they are.10/09/2018 12:41 PMPosted by ReallyhappyI don't know enough about Danusaur (or whatever he's called) to call him a self insert.
I could see him being a creators pet, but self insert is a large claim, I think it is just far more likely he adores the character.
Nathanos speaks as if hes being written by a 13 year old who just discovered Hot Topic.
If all we had to go on was the narrative, I would agree 100%.10/09/2018 12:41 PMPosted by ReallyhappyI could see him being a creators pet, but self insert is a large claim, I think it is just far more likely he adores the character.
It's the out-of-game stuff that moves it convincingly into self-insertion territory. When the guy tweets out the new character model and comments on it being a reflection of himself while simultaneously referencing the cringey fanfic-esque story he wrote about banging Sylvanas, there's not really any other way to take it.
You wouldn't need to know him. Self-inserts aren't carbon-copies of the writer.10/09/2018 12:41 PMPosted by ReallyhappyI don't know enough about Danusaur (or whatever he's called) to call him a self insert.