Some very minor changes that could improve the game

Dumb statement, and also moving the goalposts. WoW is a PvE-oriented game. Most people will be chasing the dungeon/raid content rather than PvP. Retribution is NOT viable there, and that’s problematic. I’m not saying Classic should be changed. It’s a museum and should be authentic as possible. What I am saying, and what is really hard for people like you to accept, is that the original iteration of the game was, in fact, heavily flawed when it came to class design.

Copy-pasting again? You can at least try to make it look original by getting rid of the obvious typo that got caught in just about every single one of your posts here (“notvtonplaybto”) since you’re literally just copy-pasting your previous posts. Is this how you deal with conflict in life? Just repeat the same lines until the other person goes away? I hope not. Anyway, that won’t work on me. I’m too petty and stubborn for that.

As for the actual point at this part: just the stock-standard, fanboyish, knee-jerk retort of deflecting the blame from Blizzard’s failures to the players for not adequately working aroundf them. Just as detestable as it always was.

WoW has always been a PvE-focused game. Weak argument.

There should not be entire specs that are total no-go-zones for raiding. That’s a major failure of class design. It’s a role playing game. Let people play the role they choose.

This is also a weak argument. You’re focusing on the very most cutting edge of content for one of the hardest raids in history, and the ones you are seeing are probably speedruns at that. It is impossible to balance the game perfectly and there will always be meta specs. What matters is the difference between the top-tier specs and the bottom-tier.

If you go to the very hardest of content, of course it will be purely the best specs. If you go a step down from that to “really hard but doable by many” level content, you want to make sure there is no spec that can’t be brought without hurting the raid. If you look at, say, Mythic Jaina: it’s much easier than CoS but it’s still difficult content. You can bring pretty much any spec you want there. There are some staples, i.e. priests to MC the adds, but it’s not like there are particular specs that you just can’t justify bringing. The closest you get to that is really the worst DPS spec in the game right now (Subtlety), particulary because Outlaw is so strong right now. It’s still not as bad as, say, a HFC situation where Survival was waste-of-a-raid-spot territory, and it’s certainly not as bad as the situation in Vanilla.

There shouldn’t be a hybrid tax because you are only playing as one of the roles for any given fight. People shouldn’t be punished for playing the fantasy archetype that suits them best just because it happens to share a class with a healer spec. If the game is going to be that way, then they shouldn’t have specs at all; it should just be a larger quantity of smaller, independent classes.

Bad game design.

Again, bad game design and equally terrible analogies to justify it. Ret Paladin are a DPS spec. Arms Warrior is a DPS spec. There is no reason why those specs shouldn’t be able to adequately DPS. There is no reason to punish people who play them. Yes, homogenisation is best avoided, but the mere action of allowing all DPS specs to be competitive is not excessive homogenisation. They still all have different identities, aesthetics, and playstyles. In fact, if you want the game to be dehomogenised you should want all the DPS specs to be viable so that you get a variety of different choices instead of just having everyone pile into the handful of “working” DPS specs.

You had me at “changes” :japanese_goblin:

…Regardless, i did read your post, but i gotta disagree with any extra balancing changes.
Worry not though, because chances are really good that we’ll get TBC after Classic. In which case, Ret is going to receive their Crusader Strike, and will probably end up a bit more useful in raids than they are in Classic!

Until then, i hope you can enjoy the game for what it’s gonna be anyway :+1:

No. Go away.

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Except vanilla was about the class, not the spec. All classes were good in raids. And even if you go to specs, only druid could really claim they had only one spec viable. Maybe shaman.

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As I said, it sounds like Classic may not be the game for you.

Fortunately, there already exists a game which has all the “class identity” you crave. You can tank with that paladin one fight, heal the next and then DPS the third, all with the push of a couple of buttons. It’s currently called BFA.

I want to be a fisherman. Now give me a raid spot. ( I jest, obviously.)

It’s not about it simply sharing a healing spec. It’s that those hybrids have access to a vast majority of that spec’s capability, meaning that if you bring a non-healer druid to a raid, they’re still going to be throwing out some potent heals. The idea of a spec is a “Specialization”, meaning they do that aspect better. They don’t suddenly lose the others, thus they shouldn’t be able to do top tier damage AND have capable healing. That’s how Hybrid Tax works. And it’s necessary to keep classes from being broken. Or you’d simply have a team of 30 ret pallies, and the rest buffing classes.

They both can do adequate DPS. Warrior just does MORE dps, and a Paladin has the potential to heal itself and others. Welcome to old school game design, where perfect balance isn’t there. If you want all the classes being able to do all the things, that’s what BFA is for.

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Amazes me that all of these years later people are making the arguments we made back then that eventually led to the class changes.

The hybrid tax made absolute sense when you can step back away from personal feelings and just look at design. Had Ret, Elemental, Balance, Enhance, and Feral been able to pump out the same damage while keeping their utility they absolutely would have been gods.

An example of what that would have looked like, see Paladins in the Pre-Patch for Wrath, or the launch version of DK. Mage, Warlock, Hunter and Rogue would have been completely dead classes, not just specs. It’s the reason that as they made changes those specs utility would end up being gutted and much of the feel of those specs along with it.

That doesn’t even get into the fact that Ion has said that if they do rebalancing that they would be treated exactly like the BfA specs. No one who wants Classic wants that.

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Arms warriors ARE NOT a combination priest/warrior. They are warriors, period, end of descriptor. YOU offered a terrible analogy, not me.