So. When survival gets in inevitable rework

why cant MM just use explosive shot and 40 yd bomb to go with it’s machine gun ability then? you even got threads here asking for SV to swap to the necromancy hero tree lol.

u know it is not “sudden” it is probably the #1 thing besides being melee that people bring up.

if he’s a huge melee fan he does a bad job showing it tbh. we don’t even have bepples here asking for a range spec anymore, it’s just people that actually want a melee pet spec and he’s gotta argue with all of them about bombs all day

How? For not wanting a Hunter spec, whose ranged specs have higher relative uptime than any other ranged specs, not to be run circles around by the average melee who tends to a consider number of ranged attacks at this point?

The only specs with significantly more melee than Survival has, at this point, are Arms, Fury, Subtlety, Assassination, and arguably Havoc.

If that’s all that was needed, Unholy is right there.

And the opposite is just as true. Having bombs doesn’t remove Survival from the “Melee” pool or needing melee uptime any more than Lightning Bolt does for Enhance. Hell, at present, bombs are what creates the only gameplay-noticeable reward for auto-attack uptime. At most, it’s the portion of non-melee-constrained uptime that makes that change… which so far Asthelon and similar have most addressed.

Like, feel free not to like the bombs in the same sense that one could dislike the VFX of Covenant skills re-released into BFA or of Dark Ranger on BM or whatnot, but especially if the bomb frequency were simply reduced and the CDR/resets, especially (which further increase priority and force bombs to be more central) trimmed —per Asthelon’s and others’ suggestions— we’re not some weird outlier.

But it’s just that — personal visual preference; the whole “bombs are athematic” on the “all-the-tools” spec makes no sense than “I should be hitting enemies with my sword/hammer, not swords popping out of the ground / hammers falling from the sky / whirlwinds of holy energy!”

On this character, I’d personally prefer, say, a cursed throwing kukri or rift-/warp-dagger over a bomb, because that better fits how I imagine it for this character. For a human, probably the bomb. For a dwarf, gnome, goblin, or troll, definitely the ‘bomb’ (as it’s just the WC3 troll bat-rider molotov). But that’s just glyph territory.

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people literally just want an option that isn’t a bomb lol

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I assumed you didn’t read it the first time considering I took the time to address arguments about realism and friendly fire and then you decided to reply with a multi-point post about realism and friendly fire.

It’s fine if we can’t come to an agreement, but I don’t understand blatantly ignoring 95% of a post that you take the time to respond to, making your entire response about what was literally addressed in that very post, and then getting bent out of shape when asked to read it again.

Moving on.

In a world where ranged weapons exist, why do you suppose one would go out of their way to choose a melee weapon instead? I think a sensible conclusion would be as a test or flex of one’s physical prowess and skill, either to gain a greater sense of accomplishment or out of respect for the prey.

Taking this into consideration, it doesn’t make sense that this type of Hunter would go from melee weapon to throwing grenades. The use of grenades would profane the very purpose of choosing the melee weapon in the first place and would do so to the utmost degree.

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it is sudden, trust me. remember: the spec has always had explosions and it’s only been this expansion it’s been a “problem”

you don’t think a sniper archer that also throws bomb is “thematic mess” or are you suggesting that to be disingenuous? MM can use explosive shot by the way :slight_smile:

go ahead and point to literally one anti-melee thing I said, I would love that.

tell me why survival isn’t a melee pet spec when our main filler is melee, aoe enabler is melee, spirit bond is melee, auto attacks are melee, cooldowns bring us to melee, etc. our resource generator and main damage mechanic gameplay loop (tip) and mastery are all related to the pet to, as well as the above melee cooldowns

you are making things up to get mad at and digging your heels in the sand.

so ask for a glyph that makes it something else instead of expecting blizzard to mechanically rework the entire spec to fit the needs of a few forumandies who can’t handle the explosion spec having explosions? lol?

again…you are putting things on the spec that aren’t there. it’s fine if this is your headcanon, but there’s nothing ever in the spec to imply it is some sort of honorable nature warrior with respect for the prey.

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He used mostly Explosive Arrows and his survival knife. Otherwise he improvised with what he picked up from his surroundings. Same has Survival’s method of using unusual materials to fight.

Survival hunter is not the Rexxar spec in any flavor. The designers only changed Rexxar’s classification because Survival was melee. Otherwise, Rexxar is still considered Beastmastery.

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as ashtelon would say this is just your “headcanon” because rambo is not even a wow character

lol yea lemme see oh wait “profile is hidden”. 90% of ur posts are just arguing with other SV players now, no need to look for anything.

lol i already said this probably in this thread but you cant help but keep your explosion obsession going for the 10th time

Oh you must meet my friend John J. Keeshan.

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I post literally all the time you can find something. where else did you get your idea that im anti melee from? surely it didn’t come from nowhere?

even altani knows I’m pro melee and we have very strong differing opinions.

person A argues that explosions are bad until the cows come home = normal discourse
person B argues the same amount that is a dumb opinion to have based on nothing = obsessed

hmm definitely neutral

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hmm well i will continue to post all of my dumb opinions and you can continue to argue with every SV player i dont mind really

looking forward to it

OMG! Is this Moonlighting? This totally feels like I’m watching an episode.

…95% of a post I neither quoted nor referred to, was 2 posts removed from one I did, and only 5% of whose content overlapped with the one I was quoting and responding to?

???

And if you’re going to pull that card, I already pointed out several times across this thread, including just before and long before your post, why I do not think that explosives and pet/melee use are incongruous in SV.

  • I very clearly do not agree with you that a Survival Hunter using explosives is anything like a Warlock randomly using demonic uppercuts on its enemies, nor that there would be no use for a melee weapon the moment one has a flintlock.

Merely knowing that you think it is… does not force me to agree with that.

For the same reason we did so for more than 5000 years? Because there were advantages to the melee weapon over the ranged one, be that in frequency of usability, control, reliability, defense, or whatever else?

We still used spears and swords right alongside guns for long after the gun were made a standard part of warfare. It wasn’t until reload times were cut to a fifth or less that such lost any utility.

Why do we have to assume that any pistol should exclude all other resources to the extent of an unlimited-ammo perfectly-silent semi-automatic?

My guy, grenades were originally used… in the era of swords and spears. If you include naptha (nearer to WFB) and the like, then they overlapped for roughly a millennium.

And that’s in a world with actual friendly fire.

But fine, let’s put it this way:

  • SV should not exist, because Rapid Fire exists on MM, able to fire off 50-caliber rounds every .286 seconds pre-Haste.
    • In fact, really nothing but MM should exist. MM might occasionally be forced into a bout of regret and mercy that may limit how often the Marksman can do this, but ultimately, their one-shotting 7 enemies in 2 seconds does kind of beat out everything.
    • Oh, except for Fire Mages dropping literal meteors on people. Or the magical fat owl people dropping moons on them. But certainly, no other physical combatant has any practical value.

It doesn’t. It truly doesn’t. They historically overlap, especially among the kind of infiltrationists/survivalists and kit-/resourcefulness-centric combatants Survival’s NPC analogs are based upon.



Which does nothing to your ability to check his posts.

Click the search icon in the top-right corner. Type poster’s name. Click first option. Press “More”. Voila. You have their post history.

At a glance, though, this:

  • I’m usually the one of the two to still want things like a manual Serpent Sting and Kill Shot (atop a shorter, less oppressive Mongoose Fury window). He’s usually been the one to want them replaced with more melee filler.
  • I think the change to TotS was pointless redundancy that just made SV more sluggish, while he thinks it thematic; we’ll likely each die on those respective hills.
  • Meanwhile, we’ve both generally agreed that (far) too many globals go into bombs, especially per CDR (both WFB and ES).

Calling out a BS warrant about X as BS or not a rationale from which decisions should typically be made =/= defending how X currently plays.

  • That note claims only that there’s no reason to necessarily remove its visual option/range from the spec, let alone —if the WFB/ES CDR were simply reined in— the then-middling degree of ranged GCDs such affords (the gameplay/capacity component, minus rampant CDR).

I mean, have you ever seen the guy argue against glyphs for it, or even alternatives (provided they could be balanced)? When the guy’s asking for less of it and not precluding options by which to go around it as long as they don’t remove existing options in doing so… how is that an “obsession with explosions”?

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Finally everyone can agree on something

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Based on what I have read it is just “we always had explosions!” which is fine and true but there are also many people randomly showing up with the same request of playing without them all the time. Not very different to people that would show up pre-legion and request a melee spec. If blizz wasn’t open to changing things we wouldn’t even be having this discussion. Luckily talent trees have choice nodes which have fulfilled many various thematic requests. Example: Choice to play MM with a pet, choice to play BM without explosive shot, choice to play BM with 1 pet instead of 2. There should be 0 issue with bomb having a choice node with another ranged aoe button.

sure, but it’d be just as silly to show up in a rogue forum and say “poisons just don’t make any sense, realistically you can’t poison robots, or gods, or elementals, or dragons ” and how they detract from the fantasy. the class (rogue in this example) has always had poisons, and people mad about that are silly and should be told as such.

the thing is wfb is not just one talent node on the tree like your example with BM with explosive shot or MM with pet. there are plenty of bomb related synergies and talents because it’s a main ability of the spec. if you revamp bomb into a choice node that is something else then all of those other abilities need to change too.

maybe. yet there are people that hate using vanish as outlaw and you could say rogues always used stealth so it should stay in their rotation because it is a core rogue thing.

i mean people said the pet could not be added to MM due to spotter’s mark being too prominent in the tree yet they still did it anyway. i feel like wfb would be simple. if it is 2 aoe buttons then the synergies just change text 1 to text 2. 1 is a bomb and 2 is some other aoe for pet people.

Aye, but talents can already be conditional with other talents or even sets of talents. Look at Cleave vs. Whirlwind or Bladestorm vs. Ravager and how they affect talents that interact with them, for instance. It’s wholly doable.

The only question is whether we want them to play identically (in which case a glyph would suffice) or differently (in which case we risk one being better than the other / add balancing time in exchange for more gameplay optionality that easily could stack with glyphs, too).

sure, but those all stay physical damage irrespective of choice and function (nearly) the same w/r/t whirlwind/cleave being localized physical damage in a circle/cleave e.g.

however, if wfb is replaced by (for example) the popular suggestion of a glaive, that would probably deal physical damage which would then need to deal a lot more damage as it would have to factor in armor, and how would a glaive replicate the same sort of toss situation while also working with grenade juggler, bombardier, explosives experts, etc

not to mention the idea of throwing a massive glaive in melee range sounds a lot more unwieldly than a small fist sized grenade and doesn’t really do anything for the criticism of hurting yourself/pet/allies

if we hand wave it as a magical arcane glaive, wouldn’t this still bring up the same point of contention that it’d be a 1) thematic mess 2) doesn’t make sense on all hunters 3) better suited for a glyph exclusively instead of a daisy-chained choice node