So what exactly is the point of Lava Lash?

And I’m fine with that design to an extent (Lava Lash with it’s moderate CD and relatively higher damage leaving gaps in your rotation). I know the damage would just be gutted to oblivion without a CD and force you to GCD lock yourself to maximize your potential.

But my opinion is the current design shouldn’t justify zero core ability interaction beyond a chance for a MSW stack. No Flame Shock interaction (beyond a talent that makes one of your damage meter bars slightly longer) is just painful to see for example. Hot hand is okay, and maybe it’s the relative synergy in the SS/CL/Hailstorm/Crash Lightning, but I stand by Lava Lash looking pretty pathetic without being propped up by a selection of talents and borrowed power; not what a core class ability should be in my opinion.

For example, when I suggested something like a magma field similar to Consecration, that builds into Flame Shock or Fire Nova rather than “oh what the hell I’ll just light this guy on fire too”; I’d WANT to flame shock someone in that lava field or keep them in that area.

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Kinda sucks that Lava Lash is and somehow always has been a mediocre attack. The start of Wrath when it was put in it did laughable amounts of damage, so Blizz has to go in and increase its scaling while also having Flametongue boost its damage. Later they had to add in Searing Flames as a talent, because even with all the beefing up of its scaling it was still an Off hand attack back when off hands by design hit for 50% of a normal MH swing making its damage subpar.

By the last two major tuning patches of Wrath it had finally gotten into a decent state, but if you looked at the % damage scaling basline for the ability combined with the now 40% damage increase from flametongue, and needing to use 5 stacks of Searing Flames for double damage JUST to make it rival Stormstrike it becomes obvious how poorly implemented the ability was.

Cata maintained the status quo from the end of Wrath though it did see Searing Flames nerfed so you could no longer obtain stacks on target that was Hex’d as Searing Totem was nerfed to ignore hex’d targets.

Now MoP, oh MoP how I loathe thee. You blinded everyone with your shiny Stormblast animation as you ripped, gutted, and broke Enhancement down to pieces. Lava Lash was no exception as like with many of your abilities outside of Ascendance in PvP you’d be left with a severe feeling of “Wow that did no damage.”

WoD saw people realizing that “Hey my damage outside of Ascendance in PvP is… kinda garbage also where did all my defensive utility go?”, but alas outside of one patch where Enhancement saw a Shaman take the trophy it was riding on Stormstrike being knee jerkingly overtuned to oblivion.

Legion was just big shiny numbers to hide terrible design that would inevitably bite Blizzard in the rear kinda like MoP into WoD. Picked up the phone pretty quick when everyone realized “Wait without my artifact my spec let alone class literally doesn’t function anymore wtf happened???”

WHILE I HATE BFA SHAMAN WITH A PASSION. I have to admit that it DID see more use of Lava Lash as a filler, and it did have build that could do damage. Too bad NONE OF THAT MATTER because the bind mousewheeldown to stormstrike spam build blew it out of the water and required literally zero mental impute from the player!

Shadowlands is tbt, but honestly I just don’t see it. With Hot Hand having to compete with Stormflurry, Forceful Winds just being a dominate tier talent no matter where it is fighting Lashing Flames, the exceedingly long cd on Lava Lash itself (Which I get is in design with its WotLK/Cata counterpart, but that ability as stated above didn’t have much impact unless you had multiple buff effects stacking the damage also it’s cooldown was 4 seconds shorter if memory serves.), there is a legendary and a conduit that entice spreading flameshocks to get beefed damage and 50% increased chance to crit, but I feel it will just be drowned out by the Stormstrike build using the “spending 5 maelstrom resets Stormstrike’s cooldown and makes it do 100% increased damage” combo.

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50/50. Bubblies was right in that they added lava lash to push the dual wield style more. old blizzard stated they wanted to push us to dual wield. They also said that the original intent of us getting dual wield was that we would mix and match our weapon imbues.

So bam, lava lash. an off-hand only attack that pushed us more to mix up our weapon imbues then just running double windfury.

But yeah, Lava-lash has always been a low damage / low priority filler. I think one time with the right talents and tier set bonus it was actually decent.

Lavalash has more core ability interaction beyond a chance for a MSW chance.
Lava lash does…

  • An attack
  • Procs Flametongue
  • Chance to proc MSW
  • Chance to proc stormbringer
  • Interacts with Crashlightning if you hit 2+ targets
  • Any on-hit trinkets

vs Storm strike

  • Two attacks
  • Procs flametongue
  • Procs Windfury
  • Chance to proc MSW
  • Chance to proc stormbringer
  • Interacts with Crash Lightning if you hit 2+ targets
  • Any on-hit trinkets

That’s for core stuff, as in non-talent interactions. It does have an extra interaction since it uses both main-hand and off-hand to attack, so it can proc both weapon imbues.

Now for talents…

Stormstrike has 4 that directly affect it, 5 if you count buffing windfury since it has a chance to proc windfury. Lava lash only has 2.

legendries: Stormstrike has 2 (by windfury interaction proxy) vs lava lash’ 1

conduits: Stormstrike has 1 by proxy of proccing windfury vs lava lash’s 1

So core-interaction wise, They are similar in what they have a chance to proc and interact with. Thought it really isn’t that fair that lava lash can proc a free Stormstrike but stormstrike can’t proc a free lava lash. [Primal Lava Actuators] might be good to have baseline.

Finally number tunings need to happen big time atm. Read on the beta thread some one did some DPS dummy hits with a full lava lash build and even when fully supported, lavalash lost to stormstrike damage wise. It was something like 70 lava lash hits equaled 60 stormstrike hits? That sucks damage wise.

Even base-line, Lavalash should be doing something (tossing out numbers) 70%-80%damage of stormstrike instead of half atm since it has double the cooldown. You can stormstrike twice as often and some times even more if you get lucky with stormbringer procs. It also has 8 talent/legendary/conduit buffs/interactions vs lava lash’s 4.

Like I don’t mind it’s current interactions and stuff, just wished it did more damage so a LL focus build could do more.

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Personally I hate it when they make me press buttons that are not Stormstrike. I want a talent that turns Lava Lash into another Stormstrike so I can Stormstrike more. The worst thing about abilities like Lava Lash is that they aren’t Stormstrike and I have to sometimes press them when I would rather Stormstrike.

STORMSTRIKE!!!111one

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To make you cry instead of having windfury imbued on your mainhand and offhand weapons.

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If Lava Lash can stand on it’s own in damage similar to Storm Strike, that would be okay if still a little bland. That’s putting a fair bit of emphasis on borrowed power to bring a low priority ability into the spotlight. It could work, but I am not sure I agree with that from a design standpoint; it just ends up being a problem for the next expansion as it has been for the last few.

Maybe the main issue is that as an ability / implementation / identity, rather than function, it’s inferior to Stormstrike in every category listed; less damage, Flametongue is just added damage vs potential resource generation, MSW % chance is the same but on a longer cooldown than Stormstrike while unsupported by a Stormbringer-like ability without a legendary (opportunity cost), and on-hit effects suffer from the same longer CD relative to Stormstrike.

I don’t want the Stormstrike spam to return, but I admit it is easy to see where the “bind Stormstrike to mouse scroll” comments come from when the toolkit treats Lava Lash as a bastard child everyone wishes was Stormstrike instead.

Lava Lashing a target with FS gives you thorns and cauterizes your wounds for 6 seconds reducing incoming damage by 10% or provides some passive healing 2s after using it.

Make it interesting.

I really really REALLY wish I had seen this question and gotten a quick reply in,

The exact total and complete point of lava lash was to divert shaman damage away from stormstrike+windfury. It was part of a system that was the post-vanilla nerfageddon, from which we have never really recovered.

If you looked at a recount pie-chart of our damage post nerf, it became this rainbow of colorful pie slices so that we would still have things to do but our primary attack would be … teh nerftown.

Oddly enough though, there were people that joined the shaman ranks post-lava-lash and they soaked it up thinking very seriously that “this is what shaman are!” And you will see their posts and discussions which are some version of “make LL great again!!!”. But in reality, what they are asking for is something that was part of the original giant post-vanilla backlash to windfury.

Today, in the coming SL version of enhance we are back to one of the great nerf-schemes with a recount pie-chart that has all the colors of the rainbow, each in tightly managed little boxes.

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You are upset that Lava Lash has “zero interaction” baseline, but it has an interaction with flametongue, crash lightning, and can proc stormbringer/maelstrom weapons regardless how passive and boring it is. Stormstrike is in the same boat, and has “zero interaction baseline” in that regards because it has the same interactions. It too requires talents to do anything of real interest (if you call guaranteeing a Maelstrom Weapon charge, higher damage, and a chance to essentially be its own version of Windfury interesting).

Lava Lash is underwhelming because its a band-aid fix meant to lock us into dual-wielding by being an off-hand attack (further compounded by Stormstrikes change to require one handed weapons, as people were STILL forgoing lava lash to 2h prior to when SS was changed) and too keep flametongue relevant to the kit (which again at this point is pointless interaction due to imbues requiring specific weapon hands).

I’d honestly rather see Lava Lash and dual-wield removed entirely and rework Windfury to be a 1h+shield dps spec so at least we’d get shield armor to bump our survivability.

A lot of us would like to see many things.

The reality of it is Lava Lash is here to stay — as an off-hand weapon attack that makes flametongue relevant to the kit instead of just being replaced with Windfury — and serves as a tuning knob separate from stormstrike/stormbringer procs/windfury.

TBC moved us to dual-wielding, with the intention of running Windfury / Flametongue, but people still 2h’d and did well — people ran windfury/windfury and did well. Because the players wanted to play a certain way that Blizzard did not want them to. Lava Lash came in to solve that, by doing weak damage and requiring flametongue to be meaningful.

It didn’t stop people from doing Windfury/Windfury, but the damage from Windfury / Flametongue parsed much higher (I believe due to the addition of an internal windfury cooldown to prevent both hands proccing at the same time/right after each other/etc.) This too backfired however, because flametongue added spellpower, and Enhancement shaman had a talent mental quickness that converted Spellpower into AGI (or something similar) which meant that running a spellpower weapon mainhand, then double flametongue for their spellpower bonuses significantly outparsed the intended Windfury / Flametongue. The solution to this was getting rid of mental quickness, and just making Enh run on attack power with spells taking a coefficient of the atk pwer to boost their damage…rather than working from spellpower stats.

It’s very possible that they never figured out how to split flametongue weapon into 2 version (one that gave spellpower, and one that didn’t), which is why we are seeing just the non-spellpower version return now. (Enhance still uses spells so even without mental quickness, Enhance’s spells would benefit from spellpower stat )

This is the reality of the situation regardless whether anyone agrees with it or not. It will still hit like a truck with Hot Hands, and 50% crit soulbind…which just falls back to relying on outside systems to make kits feel complete (which is also garbage).

Hot Hands procs currently boost Lava Lash to near top priority in the damage rotation if you are running it — and will certainly be the case once it has a 50%+ crit rate.

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I wouldn’t say upset so much as baffled. Zero interaction is hyperbole on my part and I deserved to be called out on that that, but more accurately, it’s still Stormstrike lite and lacks an identity beyond adding an extra button to press and stealing a slice of the Stormstrike damage pie chart.

Stormstrike, by virtue of its CD and main hand / Windfury interaction, is interesting to press because it vastly outperforms Lava Lash in MSW generation not to mention damage; that’s its identity and needs nothing more to stand on its own.

When Stormstrike comes off cooldown there is expectation of potential burst: “Awesome, lets hit hard, build 1-2 or more MSW and maybe follow up with a Chain Lighting Frost Shock and Crash Lighting”

When Lava Lash come off CD: “I guess I’ll hit this button since I don’t have anything else to press, maybe I’ll get a MSW stack”

Hot hand is decent in concept (with tuning) but it’s still a long ways off from carving an identity for Lava Lash as evidenced by beta tests comparing a Lava Lash supported build vs base Stormstrike performance.

To most people that aren’t reviewing the history of Lava Lash, the only thing that matters is it’s current function; perhaps I should have changed the title to “So what exactly is the point of Lava Lash (now)?”

The current point now I would argue is to be a melee attack that bypasses armor and scales with mastery.

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That would be kind of neat. Give lava-lash BfA’s flame tongue damage component. In that it deals fire damage so it scales mastery.

Would be a good way of adding interactions and making it different from stormstrike instead of it just being stormstrike-lite.

I would still like to see a stormbringer like passive for lava-lash baseline and a damage increase for it. To make it more on par with stormstrike.

It’s working. :sob:

I like Lava Lash. But, would be down for your “magma grounds” suggestion as a talent! Just sounds like it would look fun. Maybe burn the pads of your feet, though.

I bet Zezu would have a good idea, too. They have lots of good ideas.

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Do not forget for a short time it also spread flame shock iirc.

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Pretty sure it already does fire damage which is nice at least.

The Primal Lava Actuators is an interesting concept too since it does tie core abilities together. The problem with borrowed power that flips low priority abilities into viable offshoot builds is they are usually sensitive to tuning. We’ve already pointed out the many times players found a way to exploit some innocent new item/ability/etc. that gets magnified to unintended levels by the scale factors required to elevate Lava Lash in a vacuum; the nerfs are quick to follow. The worst part is the inevitable rug pull towards the end of an expansion with no guarantee interesting effects might be made baseline. To some extent, I’d sooner see Primal Lava Actuators and Hot Hand swapped so at least the core interaction is part of the spec and not borrowed.

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I will say i like the dw for shaman. But i think it should have all 3 options. 2h, dw, 1h shield. I think the 1h shield option should be for hey more defensive play style. And the dw 2h should be for the more aggressive playstyle.

I will agree i wish they would remove LL and turn it in to a lightning ability. Make Enhancement a wind lightning spec by removing LL and gicing us a lightning/wind shock and make Elemental a fire earth spec.

We’ll call it “Hot Foot” lol

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Lava Lash should just be Lava Burst.

Also, Lava Burst (or Lava Lash if it stays) should cause flame shock to spread to up to 3 nearby targets for 3 seconds. (Not full duration Flame Shocks.)

This would allow Lava Burst, Fire Nova for a decent “pump” without the clunky shock cooldown and debuff management that happens now. 3 seconds also allows a possible global between for “buffer” if a stun or totem is called.

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I do agree and have pitched years ago ideas for lava lash to just be the melee form of Lava burst. The idea of elemental and Enhancement being similar in toolkit, but different in playstyle always appealed to me.

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The change to mental quickness was that in allowing us to gain SP from our AP they made it so that the talent also prevented us from benefitting from any SP sources outside of the AP conversion.