They had the most interesting and best cosmetic rewards tagged to them in the beginning as well.
I still wish I’d paid more attention to the MoP ones for the nice mounts and xmog. To this day, btw.
M+ challenge was supposed to be about the timer and making the dungeon do things that had to be understood thoroughly to overcome to meet it.
Not screw up a class archetype gameplay pillar. They tried that in Cata with healers to “make dungeons hard again”. Failure. They tried bottoming out DPS quite a few times too. Failures.
Clever and interesting encounter designs (not of the dance-dance variety) have always proven to be the bees knees.
Not whacking classes in the knees and telling them to go out there and win the gold medal or die trying.
Paid carries make the content irrelevant outside of the loot funnel that people have been forced to need by the current design.
The challenge means absolutely nothing with paid carries out there.
Which pretty much invalidates any reason for them to exist as-is outside of giving something that Blizzard can point at and say “see?..”…or the esport.
there ARE clever and interesting encounters. the problem is that the people who watch the content (as opposed to doing the content) see the best players doing it quickly and assume it must be trivial.
Kiting isn’t a function of Blizzard design, it’s a function of players trying to get around Blizzard design. I’d bet good money that down the road mob abilities get tuned to stop tanks from being able to kite large packs, it would be very easy to do.
Brawler’s guild definitely had an influence. You’re right. I actually forgot all about Brawler’s guild.
I’m not above saying I’m wrong about things. I just particularly enjoyed CMs in MoP and to some extent in WoD. I remember being able to pug that content with a lot of people back then.
I don’t understand why you feel the need to be an a-hole though. It’s possible to talk to someone without talking down to people.
The cosmetics were certainly sweet. No doubt about that. But like… isn’t that kind of the point? You want the cosmetics but you clearly didn’t care enough about the content to play the content and push yourself. You just want the reward and you don’t actually love the content itself.
M+ by comparison… M+ is fun. It’s actually really fun. If it wasn’t fun, do you think the number of people playing it now would be playing it given the rewards have been severely reduced? Yes, a lot less people play it and they play it less often, but there are still a LOT of people playing it. You might have like 20 people playing CMs on your entire server as compared to like hundreds and hundreds of players pushing keys. It’s not even a contest.
Uhh… I don’t know about that. Blizzard clearly designed some mobs with the intent that they’re kited. Larions, gargons, ghouls, soul cleavers, so on and so forth. The “problem” is that the anti-kite mechanics that punish or complicate kiting are simply not punishing enough. Dark Praetor’s Dark Seeker tickles the tank so why would you tank it when you could just let it free cast on the tank and kite the rest of the pack?
To add on to my last comment a bit, now that I’m sitting at a real keyboard and not typing on my phone…
A lot of players get “stuck” in the mindset that they were in when they first started doing end-game content. They’re still thinking that the toughest dungeon content should look like Cata heroics – markers on every pack, hex this, sheep that, etc. Their expectations haven’t adapted to the way design has changed. They just watch M+ videos and see “well, nobody is putting a marker on that mob and then sheeping it, so this must be really easy”. They’re missing the fact that CCs are still happening, they just don’t require a big long pause or discussion before the pull because everyone knows what to do.
When you see these high-level keys being completed by groups that run together every day, they’re not yoloing it, they’re executing a strategy they’ve already perfected. No different than watching a mythic raid group knock out their heroic clear night in 2 hours while they BS in Discord the entire time, never discussing the fights at all other than an occasional callout.
EQ solved cheese like this by making most higher end mobs summon. I’m surprised Blizzard hasn’t done that yet. Daze, summon, snare, there are a lot of ways to get rid of this, we’ll see what happens.
Blizzard has proven over and over again, since this game started, that they absolutely hate it when players figure out a way around their design, which is exactly what happened here. Changing dungeon mechanics is not something you do in an afternoon, so like I said, we’ll see.
Ah, but the point of the OP was that higher keys do away with that in favor of taunting the Brute Squad and running for your life in the other direction.
Not true. I took a break in MoP before I “got there”, after burning out with a succession of terrible guilds in MV/HoF, and they were gone when I got back.
Same thing, incidentally, happened with scenarios having gear when I left and having no gear when I got back.
When you exit being in a good group, content that requires a good group goes with it.
You’re missing the point I guess? It’s not “figuring out a way around their design”. Blizzard intentionally wants kiting to happen in many cases. At most they want to curb kiting in packs where people should be tanking specific mobs. But Blizzard didn’t create mobs like larions, ghouls, garons, soul cleavers, and so forth and not know that people would kite them because the counter-play to those mobs is very clearly obviously intended to be kiting.
As far as bosses being kited, bosses aren’t really kited. Sire D literally shadowsteps to his target and gets a free auto-attack if you get too far from him. If they don’t want kiting to happen, they can make it not happen. Since they haven’t forced that mechanic onto too many enemies, it is obvious that they acknowledge kiting and want it to be happening, again probably just not to the extent it is happening.
I think it’s funny AoE got capped and now kiting is in the spotlight
We gonna cap kiting next? What about after that, anything else we can think of beforehand to destroy?
And you’re telling me you couldn’t find a way to make it happen? I’m pretty sure server transfers existed back then.
People transfer servers to raid, heck people even transfer or swap factions for M+. It’s hard to say CM was worthy of being on the same level as raiding or M+ if people as a whole just didn’t care to make it happen beyond it being a fun side-activity. Realistically, that’s all CM was, a side-activity, not even close to being in the same league as M+. It was more akin to pet battles than M+, it just happened to use the same gameplay engine and content as dungeons.
i was mostly joking when i said at the end of last year that it was only a matter of time before GD decided playing alts was cheating and demanded action… but at this rate i think it might happen this year
Somewhat true. Certain affixes require you to tank regardless. Bolstering for example. The more you kill, the stronger they get, comes to the point where mobs can 1 shot you with 5+ stacks of bolstering.
There is also necrotic.
Every tank needs to kite here and there. Sure, you can burn through your CD’s, but it would be unwise when you can simply CC/kite and save CD’s for boss fights.
Maybe, but why did Blizzard made packs size of 5-6 and added Bolstering as an affix? Read my comment above. Double pulls are not common in 13’s and higher.
Perhaps, but the problem with kiting is threat. Not even tank has sufficient range threat generators to make it easy. Bear’s certainly have a rack up time on Thrash and range (Moonfire) is rather weak.
Except for things like Sap/poly do not work on a lot of trash packs. But where they do, rogues do CC, but then it becomes the issue of timer. If you see 2/3’s of every pack, you simply will never get M+ timed.
Read my comment above. Not all tanks have range threat generators. Not all tanks are equal in kiting.
And then what? Kill the ONLY method of tanking current M+ system? Then no one will ever advance further than 15/17, as affixes like Bolstering will simply make you wipe every.single.pull. Please use brain cells.
CC with certain affixes is a must have now. I am even doing a single M+ run w/o boomie treants, plus my mass roots, vortex, frost nova etc. Without these things, Necrotic+Bolstering would be nearly imposssible.
As it would be the ONLY way to mitigate damage. Affixes, especially this week, designed to 1 shot tanks.
So, you’re telling me, you can face tank 5 bolstering stacks, along with 30+ necrotic stacks without kiting? And use your 3m CD’s every pull? lol. Sure pal. This statement is so ignorant I don’t even know where to begin.
I doubt that there a lot of people who can say, with a straight face, that they will log on and play the game with one class exclusively, with zero option for another class at any time, ever.
Even in ARPGs you can switch around.
If the point was how much can be shared…account wide things and loot trading are highly electrifying rails to widdle on.
With bolstering, solid dps play is key to changing the threat. By swapping to high HP mobs and burning them down evenly, this is mitigated. Obviously, I agree that the threat still exists when elites are paired with non-elites, but I think the need for kiting is also heavily influenced by group comp.
Take Boomies with trees and weave that CD in with tank cDs and any healers external to help manage the need to kite.
Necrotic stacks can also be cleared by Kyrian Phial, so that’s another item to weave into the mix.
Definitely going to have some kiting, but I think a group on comms, some good cohesion overall, goes a long way to mitigating the threats. With pug groups, the strats are more known by the high-key running players, I’d argue.
For my take, not having a solid, consistent group makes these sorts of things stand out and really punishing. I think this exacerbates this issue at lower key levels.
I don’t think any of this is new to you, and I agree that kiting is a powerful tactic, but sharing my take.
that’s the thing. everyone knows high level keys are really really hard compared to something like a cata heroic. no one is disputing that. but op mech (and new kara) had a significant level of difficulty for a casual player to do without the added stress of the timer. no one is asking for 93475934875345 new dungeons a tier and for mythic+ to go away. literally most people i see comment about it want 1-2 dungeons a tier to work on. i certainly had to get gear from other sources for a bit before i was able to make it all the way through mechagon. also, you seem to think that everyone is on the same level of skill. they’re not. op mech was essentially a 5 man raid, that the people on the forums at the time said was at about a +13 in terms of difficult and compared it to some of the mid tier bosses of the heroic raid. (i didn’t do either of those things so i’m just going by what they said at the time) that’s a thing for casuals to progress through. you would do it in an hour or whatever and then be like “meh”. but for some people that is a significant challenge. and honestly i would must rather do “progression” for something like op mech vs snoozing my way through lfr or normal.
