It’d be a huge tone correction (and a welcome one) where the Horde just had a big freaking win over the Alliance and their actions weren’t justified at all but they did something because it was awesome and we didn’t spend ages crowing on and on about how horrible it was an how much trauma it caused the NPCs.
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I dont think he plays much of the game/old stuff and he only read the wiki.
there are orcs that garrosh send, he specifically wanted to command the invasion
Ask him where the first warfront is, what the first warfront thematic is after and ask him the first season sets what thematic they are after
Bad choice of game then
To the surprise of no one, its the people who dont like the factions who want to get rid of it and anything related to it
While the people who like it are completely fine in having both stories
It actually makes WORSE
Without factions blizz isnt forced to write different races anymore.
With factions they at least need to account the horde exist and have to focus on someone else than blood elves
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Tbf the writers are prolly on the same boat.
Christie Golden really wrote the ‘auchenai are immensely skeptical of even the most well intentioned people’ in her book then had them apparently just have the Illidari on pension when Illidan stole souls from Auchindouin for power.
Honestly even some Alliance players are sick of the typical story trope too now.
It’s boring, predictable and makes them look rather useless when they can’t predict Horde-going-evil 
Yet again! and then defeat their oh-so-problematic high-prominent figures & leadership, followed by leaving the rest of them alone?? (Again) despite having the power to simply end it once & for all — and eventually REPEAT the process of destruction & loss all over later on …
Not to mention with the Alliance having all their God-tier heroes be nerfed drastically in every faction conflict → OBVIOUSLY because the Horde got jack squat heroes in comparison at this point now, because they’ve all become irrelevant, slaughtered or had their faces stomped on to uplift Alliance heroes — and everyone who’s got at least half a brain-cell knows they’d likely be wiped out in mere seconds if the Alliance weren’t nerfed … It’s ridiculous.
Queue to Midnight narrative:
And now the Sunwell is being sort of destroyed (again) and eventually turned into – ThE DaWnWeLL …
Such is done by having them be saved by the Nightelves vial of a Moonwell, a Nightborne fruit and Void Elves efforts, as if it’s like Blizzard squeezing with ecstasy-pleasure and moaning out a HUGE sloppy 
on the Blood Elves identity’s face, wiping it into their mouth, telling them to chew it, swallow and then to smile & be grateful.
It’s not surprising that so many Blood Elf fans – and overall Horde fans, STILL feel pissed off @ the narrative, especially in Midnight.
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Horde fans don’t even get the satisfaction of Alliance as bad guys because that’s been sloppily combined with this “Lightblind” business (another “outside force influencing the conflict”, Blizzard’s NEVER done that before, right?) and sometimes the Alliance - such as Turalyon - has a valid point;
#
Void Elf Alleria’s presence makes the Sunwell get infected with Void
Lor’themar; Banishes Alleria
Story; supports this
Lor’themar allows Void Elf Umbric near the Sunwell, which is currently the only thing stopping a Voidstorm consuming them all.
Turalyon; Tries to force Umbric away
Story and Lor’themar; condemns this
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I quite literally said the opposite and you misquoted what I said to try and get some weird ‘yeah guys you cant listen to these people’ dumb quotemine.
Bro only knows how to clip things out of context and pretend I’m arguing something that I’m not.
Embarrassing.
I have literally quoted questtext from old sources to you only for you to handwave them away and pretend like they don’t exist.
If you want ‘old lore faction conflict’ then you should read the old lore and look how its actually treated in those expansions idk.
I am convinced that this thread is 80% crybaby cope about weird culturewar issues and ‘muh death of western fantasy’ than it is talking about the actual problems in Warcraft’s narrative.
Like every thread like this devolves into some weird made-up problems.
Earnestly read this and tell me this isn’t just dumb culturewar BS.
Sure mate 
It only proves you only read the wiki
You are either delusional or 100% dishonest to even pretend this is a “made-up problem”
But knowing your history, its the later.
I never said I wanted factions gone.
Only that the war storylines they’ve pumped out with BfA sucked and just retread.
I want new faction storylines.
It proves that I read the actual lore.
I’m still debating on whether you actually read anything at all.
Saying ‘Blizzard is just going to write that Arthas had masculinity issues and Jaina is a Mary Sue if they did a reboot’ is entirely delusional.
This is the grand culturewar cope.
‘Muh western christian fantasy’
‘Muh evil demons and good God-… erm… I mean Light!’
‘Muh women as background characters and nothing else’
These arguments always boil down to the same slop low-brow culturewar nonsense with you people.
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you read the wiki, and still get things wrong, which is the situation that the dude refuted you when you said there was no orcs in the guil’neas event
you are free to believe that
where this backhanded comment comes from? i never said anything related to it in coments about it, so Are you all right? is this trauma?
I keep my demons evil and you turn your demons good and misunderstood alll along mate
Im sure the light and church being the real evil is trully inspiring and unique, not ever done before.
the funny bit is, everytime there are discussions, YOU are the one to immediately cry wolf and talk about culture was slop
Its almost like you are the problem, get out of twitter a bit mate
I read the questtext, do the campaigns, and read the novels.
What do you read?
You can’t even spell ‘Gilneas’ right so it can’t be much.
From you and the other ongoing thread that literally devolved into people throwing mud about Christianity.
That, and you touted one of the good qualities of Tolkien being that he made a ‘Christian Fantasy’ where there was inherent good and evil based on Christian worldview in other threads.
They aren’t even evil.
They’re just capable of doing bad things.
Your concept of ‘if thing is capable of doing evil then EVERYTHING it does it bad’ is lame and reductive.
Bro.
I only do that with you because every argument you ever make is reductionist cope about women being in power, there being moral complexity, and other ‘muh western fantasy’ crybaby talking points.
Then how come you say this?
If you had, you would know this isnt true
sorry i mean golenas
I didnt, so you have to take your traumas with then, not with me.
Again, not me, all i said is that in tolkien there was absolute good and evil, which you, wrongly, said it doesnt.
And its not rly my fault if you cant grasp the complexity and moral/metaphysical implications of those and need everything to be reduced to human level of behaviour with “everyone can be good or bad”.
Again, these things are in the eyes of the beholder
you are so fed up with this brainrot everything you see is that, i bet you watch youtube about this to keep “well informed” and “own the chuds”, like how they do nowadays, while ignoring what blizzard did and continue doing in the game
Because, and you would know if you actually engaged with anything beyond ‘vibes’, theres so much information at times things fall through the cracks.
That’s not even mentioning that there being a generic Horde warship that’s vaguely ‘orc looking’ in a Human/Worgen vs. Forsaken scenario and that somehow making it ‘Humans vs. Orcs’ is so incredibly unconvincing it’s laughable.
Idk why you assume that me not wanting your ‘Christian fantasy’ in Warcraft is somehow me having a ‘trauma’ with it.
But whatever strawman makes you feel good at night, I suppose.
You’re the one who couldn’t engage with that fact that Tolkien himself struggled with the concept of ‘ultimate good vs. ultimate evil’ and inherent morality within his own fiction.
I wasn’t even the only person who pointed that out, several people did and you just ignored it.
See, your only fallback is to create some weird strawman against the argument because you don’t actually have anything to say you aren’t doing that.
See, this argument only works if you assume that I think Blizzard is writing a good story at the moment. I don’t.
I’ve stated multiple times that they misstep and make terrible choices that make the franchise worse. But you only know two modes of argument: ‘You are either with us or against us’ which I guess fits into your narrow inherent morality philosophies, so it makes sense. You can’t handle complexity beyond ‘I disagree with that point but I agree that Blizzard’s writing is awful at the moment.’
I mean, you can literally just go back and look through your post history and it is ripe with this dumb reductionist stuff.
You don’t even try to hide it:
But yes, keep on crying about… Arthas and Jaina being too… idk like modern Star Wars or something? You bring up Star Wars a lot, I imagine because that’s the easiest ‘look at how woke this is!’ thing that every brainrotten person likes to point to.
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You can jut apologize you made a mistake instead of trying to look smug after getting schooled
Your weird bias against it, your backhand comments and your disdain for the people who comment about it, which isnt even me, kinda underline some sort of problem going on there
But i hope it works out for you.
And its kinda cringe yo say 'your crhistian fantasy" in warcraft, when wow have a mix of multiple fantasies, so why are you against this in specific?
Except he didnt.
The only thing he struggled was with the orcs. eru ilúvatar was always ultimate good and he never struggled with it.
→ says someone is creating strawman
→ were literally creating a strawman by saying it was culture war
“accuse others of the things you do” moments right here
I dunno what even you are trying to achieve with this saved comments btw, since everything i said is in fact correct information.
If a race leading system is based on kratocracy, with the most physically stronger being the leaders trough martial prowess, the males will be the leaders usually
Thats just basic logic when the race have sexual dimorphism to make males bigger and stronger which is the case of orcs. If the opposite happened, then the females would be the leaders.
And its not wrong that women usually dont go to war at combatants, you can just grap a history book and see when it happened was in rare cases or in moments of desperation
You are the one crying about it, every time i comment about X you come crying about culture war lol
I like how you have to play cheerleader for anyone who even mildly retorts with any kind of argument because you can’t construct one yourself.
I already responded to that dude’s post with him, because I was discussing it with him. You’re just some unrelated dude who tries riding other people’s points to farm your WoW Forums updoots.
I don’t want religion that was retconned out of Warcraft in the 90s to be forced back into the lore for arbitrary reasons.
Christianity doesn’t fit in Warcraft. It fit in Tolkien’s works, that’s fine, that’s Tolkien. Warcraft can take inspiration from Christianity, that’s fine. The issue is forcing it into the cardinal morality of how Warcraft functions, which is lame.
Because I’m not.
I like the mix. The mix is good.
What you’re arguing, more often than not, is that it should be the primary focus or that it should dictate the morality of Warcraft. I disagree.
So now you admit he struggled with it.
Great, because he did.
How is it a strawman if I literally quote you?
It isn’t ‘correct information’ its opinonated information that harkens back to your weird issues with women and how ‘equality is bad’ or whatever.
European cultural norms do not dictate the norms of the rest of the world. There are armies where women are combatants both in the ancient world and the modern world and not just in cases of ‘desperation.’
If the shoe fits.
And you responded to me trying to paint me a certain way by misquoting-… You know what, isn’t even worth it. You know what you’re doing.
How about we don’t waste time with a long thread of: ‘Yeah-huh!’ and ‘Nuh-uh!’
Lets just summarize it like this:
You don’t like things that challenge your boring ‘rulez’ about how fantasy ‘ought to go’ and you will continue to turn every thread into you crying and quotemining to get even the most meager amount of support for that.
I’ll just leave you to that.
Oh no, i already schooled you many times as well, its just funny to see how other people can do the same
It must be a you problem.
all right 
Of course it does, there are lots of elements of it in it
so lets stop or bias and hate against it all right, try to be a bit neutral, at least to save face
Already does.
But we already had that, whats happening is forcing that demons arent always evil, which is far worse
you dont have a problem with that because you like
->he struggled with orcs
there was always ultimate good and ultimate evil in tolkien, he struggled about orcs creation and how they would fit that scheme
This does not mean he struggled with concepts themselves, you are just confusing things
→ Orcish race show to have a big sexual dimorphism with males being bigger than females - bigger, more muscles, stronger in average - just like taurens are stronger than orcs
→ Across wow story the cheiftains of the clans were mostly, almost exclusively, males
→ in most of wow wars(and real world wars) the women were not majorly present, in warcraft 1 -2 you can name only a few
Things change in wc3 with the night elves being a society mostly matriarchal while the druids male are asleep and most of the units were female, it was something that made sense and actually very well done to show a different culture that isnt human.
I loved the examples you gave here to support your argument, very well detailed and give no room to argumentation
Btw, i never said they didnt exist, i said they weren’t common, hence why i said rare cases.
Man, only shoe im seeing is the one you are using as a hat.
When you girls are done kissing we’ve got to get back to talking about how much we hate WoW’s story
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I was at least hoping he’d be able to steer the narrative back to what it was in the old days - Alliance and Horde taking low-stakes shots at each other from time to time while still begrudgingly teaming up to take down the BBEG.
Who knows, maybe we’ll get somewhere close to that in Midnight.
Haven’t pre-ordered the expansion, so I don’t have Beta access. Just been following those in the Beta to see if I, a primarily Horde player, would find it worth my time and money.
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no low stakes in midnight it will be just TWW again
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In same vein or simelair atleast
The horde council doesnt solve anything either
the problems with warchief was blizz kept villain batting the horde leader(s)
council doesnt prevent them from doing that or have been seeing, makes them use the horde at all
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Well, yes. This is true for the same reason why BfA “Kul Tirans” no longer worship the Light (despite the fact that both Daelin and Jaina worship the Light and that the crest of Kul Tiras literally depicts sun rays) and why they’re no longer called Tirasian/Tirassian. Blizzard just forgot about their old lore.
In Classic there’s absolutely no indication they ever left the Alliance and the missing diplomat quest chain tells you that Tirasian marines still operate out of Theramore, an Alliance city founded by Lordaeronian refugees and governed by a princess of Kul Tiras.
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