In the context of the conversation, had the Horde been ended at the Broken Shore they would have contributed pretty much the same amount to Legion as they did the way Legion played out any way, as is often the complaint about the absence of the Horde during the expansion.
And in the context of the conversation, as you have played Siege of Orgrimmar as well as I have, you know Vol’jin didn’t call for retreat even after sending the last of his reserves to get slaughtered by the Iron Juggernaut. Vol’jin was not the type to call for retreat. In fact, the most important part to me from the Horde side of the quest was what I cited earlier:
Vol’jin says: We’ve got ta hold dis ridge, no matter da cost.
Yes, but the difference is that Raselle was both the person I was talking to, and may be mature enough to realize she’s wrong when faced with the realization that her beliefs are based on an assumption never established in game.
I mean, between that and Amadis’ post hoc rationalizations.
For instance this, at no point is it ever said that closing that portal would save the world. Not by Vol’jin, not by Gul’dan, not by Varian. No single person in universe treats this like it held the fate of the entire world in its hands. This is something only ever repeated in the story forum.
And the closest thing to a canon argument Amadis can make. A bit of rhetoric taken literally. Next he’ll be taking “Victory or death” as proof that any orc who surrenders and retreats is being mind controlled… so long as it advances a narrative that the Horde was responsible for Varian’s death.
Oh, and you close with this cute little attempt to insult me by pretending I’m somehow insufficiently popular? Well whatever, I’m not confused why some people regard me so lowly, not when those people are you.
You’re not the first person to reach that conclusion following Amadis down one of his rabbit holes.
Oh so you’re now using game machanics to back your claims? That’s pretty weak.
I already posted you a link where Matthias shaw and the dreadlord spell it out that this Scenario was impossible to win regardless.
Retreat was the only option. If they didn’t retreat they’d all die.
I’m really at loss of the words why do you refuse to acknowledge that ?
Is the champion canon or not? Serious question. Because undeniably, we and our artefact weapons played a crucial part in defeating the Legion.
But even if not, I- really don’t see what you’re trying to argue here.
If Vol’jin had continued the offensive, on the off chance that he, although mortally wounded, would have somehow managed to close that portal, we still know the battle couldn’t be won.
He would have sacrificed the whole horde army for nothing, and in consequence, the alliance army as well.
That doesn’t change anything. That mission was from the start a suicide. And Vol’Jin noticing that during the assault that they have no chance called for retreat.
It’s so sad that the state of the story still provides opportunity for people to argue about what happened at the broken shore.
It was really fine what they did at first- “let’s show one faction half of the story, and get people to argue” but no… they just had to necro this crap way after the fact with their stupid dev comments and get people to argue about it again.
They did it because originally the circumstances of Vol’Jin’s death and sylvanas ascension made little sense to begin with. There was even massive thread about it on eu forums.
If you said they did it because people were butt-hurt about Sylvanas being the warchief, that I would believe.
I remember a bunch of whine threads, but nothing with any substance of why it didn’t make sense.
Loa wouldn’t abandon their champion as he was tasked with carrying their will already, that was what SotH was also about
Loa would never pick undead who dabs in necromancy to be his successor, especially Bwonsamdi
Loa never before were involved in picking leadership, not even for a trolls. It was the aspiring leader that first had to prove him or herself.
Vol’Jin already had great regeneration, but for some unknown reasons he couldn’t be cured, while in the very same expansion we heal off fel infection from random draenei as holy priest intro quest. But apparently Horde doesn’t have holy priests, and no healers who could do that, took him all the way back to Orgrimmar without tending his wounds.
Trolls didn’t do cremation, they were mummifying their dead. BfA kinda retconned it with blood plague which made it okayish, but for years trolls were only mummifying their dead.
Vol’jin was getting steamrolled along with everyone else by mass demon. Did the idea that he was abandoned by the Loa even come up before BFA?
The idea that spirits would ‘never under any circumstances’ suggest that Sylvanas be his successor is debatable. I don’t see why there has to be precedent.
I agree, but there could be an infinite number of explanations that have nothing to do with Sylvanas.
I do appreciate your points though. There were some really nonsensical arguments when this was current content- to the extent that people were saying that if you watched the cinematic closely, you could see Sylvanas shoot Vol’jin. Idk, maybe I am crazy, but I feel like any character would have died standing up to the wall of demons. I know a PC sure as hell will die if they try.
Yes, quite a few times. His own novel was about him getting their favor he was being set up as a guy to unite other troll tribes. He had a mission, so long troll has a greater purpose and earns a favor loa would guide and protect him (in a reasonable amount like giving him a “spider sense” to notice danger is coming so he won’t get killed).
Because they never did that before even for trolls. It was the other way around, the aspiring leader had to prove himself to them to get their favor. Loa aren’t really that much focused on thrones or some specific organizations, they need worshippers. And Sylvanas isn’t loa worshipper either. So her ascension wouldn’t benefit them at all.
That’s how things were established for years.
Yes, but he was less likely tof all than any other person because he was already fighting a wall of soldiers in his own novel for very long time, he also had big character arc about always staying on guard because he was so ashamed about letting assasins get him so he kept the scar on his throat for a reminder, and he was stabbed by a demon right in front of his nose!
Besides the Draenei, the Alliance armies in all practicality didn’t contribute anything to Legion, either, and the Draenei weren’t at the Broken Shore the first time, so nothing would have changed.
We still know that the player would have survived. If you want to argue game mechanics, that’s my point, that it doesn’t actually matter what Vol’jin did or not or if the rest of the Horde was around or not if you consider the player the most important contribution that the Horde gave to the expansion.
And I stand that no where did Vol’jin actually call for retreat, so I don’t agree with your interpretation there on its very foundation.
Him telling Sylvannas “Don’t let the Horde die today.” Seems a pretty obvious order to Sylvannas given that the entire Horde leadership was going down left and right on that cliff.
Indeed, that is all he said, which is exactly what I’m referring to. That is not inherently a call for a retreat. “Seems pretty obvious” is a belief, not a fact.
I’m pretty sure that “Don’t let the Horde die” did not translate out to “Stay and die pointlessly on a battle already lost even if you have to sacrifice the Horde to do it.”
The Horde is a lot more than what was at the Broken Shore. Letting the Legion maintain its portal there was a greater threat to the Horde than anything else.
It’s funny that you argue this when a large portion of your earlier argument basically constitutes “I don’t believe Vol’jin would have retreated.”
Here’s my point. You keep bringing up the non-retreat at Siege of Orgrimmar in your defense, but Vol’jin (and the story) is fine sending endless numbers of nameless, infinitely regenerating NPCs to their deaths. The major, major difference at the Broken Shore is that the cinematic takes pains to show the Horde player that important characters are wounded and on the verge of falling. In Blizzard’s character-centric universe, this plays as a whole lot more threatening than watching 20 more orc soldiers get cut down.
Let’s be absolutely real here, anything about Vol’jin being under some sort of influence when he appointed Sylvanas Warchief is a retcon, because when it happened I guarantee they didn’t plan BfA, let alone Shadowlands, to the level they may claim.