So the Primus

He seems to have little trouble dealing with the jailer, matching his power long enough for whatever to happen. There aren’t cut scenes yet. He put himself at risk knowing he’s he beaten once he removed his sigil and hides it. As soon as he gets it back he goes from broken rune carver to being able to hold the jailer. With all the anima zovaal has I’m really surprised any eternal could do that. But if it had to be one of course it’s the Eternal who built Maldraxxus.

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I actually really like that tidbit that the Jailer essentially stalemates and has to use Anduin to steal the sigil and then flees.

It’s always annoyed me when you have a group of cosmic-level entities but one turns bad and then suddenly he can overthrow all his brethren with little effort. Its why Sargeras turning on the Pantheon and just annihilating them all was always so unsatisfying to me, even with the after-the-fact canonization of the idea that “Fel beats Arcane just cuz.” The trope of ‘im evil now so im stronger’ seems so lazy narratively.

Especially since the Archon has been shown to be really not threatening, having been nearly killed twice now. At least the Winter Queen in 9.0 has a moment where she essentially just goes, ‘lul okay’ to the Drust and then annihilates them with her magic.

The Jailer still remains the least interesting expansion villain, but the little tidbit that even after all his machinations, he just can’t simply overpower them all by force and needs to resort to trickery or a third party elevates it just slightly. Even though he DOES overcome the Primus and turn him into the Runecarver, the way it all went down always seemed implicitly to suggest the Primus, while predicting the inevitable betrayal of the Jailer, was caught unaware.

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Its more frustrating that the keep using Anduin for these events and not characters like Helya or muehzala, you know that actual interesting powerful characters.

Anduin shouldn’t be anywhere near the level of these beings yet for some reason the keep using him like hes the most powerful character in the universe that can swing the balance.

it also really undermines the Jailer when he keeps relying on characters like Anduin and Sylvanas to pull off his schemes. Hasn’t he come across any other more powerful beings in the entire universe that would be more suitable? I mean both of them are only as powerful as either the light or he allows. Why not actually find a being with some proper power or skill and power them up.

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They use him because they think it’s gonna galvanize people against Zovaal. They Winter Soldier’d him, because Blizz is literally just copying other media. Infinity War, His Dark Materials, Endgame, literally Captain America: The Winter Soldier… But unlike Marvel, Blizzard are trying to write what’s “painful” instead of what makes sense. Personally I really like Anduin, and this xpac has been the least fun, most stressful time in WoW for me to date. For people who don’t care for Anduin? It’s not even having the intended effect. It’s just bad writing.

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I never knew the part about “Fel beating Arcane.” I always hated the whole “Oh, Sargeras just beats them all.” I get that he was their “champion” and fighter and stuff, but it seemed stupid (to me) to have them all just lay down and die.

That said, I’m really not sure I understand the Primus just “coming back” and fighting so well on the Jailer’s home turf. No recovery time needed for someone who had been mind wiped and tortured for a decent amount of time? Especially with the Jailer knowing who the Runecarver is.

But I do like that he’s not just “rofl, you all die” on the other Eternal Ones. I’m guessing the whole “needing everyone to stand against him” is based on some level of “specialization” in skills, which is pretty cool.

The Primus might be the best militarily; the Jailer might be the best manipulator; Denathrius might be the most cunning; the Archon might be the most noble (or something); the Winter Queen might be the most wise.

I’m making stuff up as I go there. Still, it’s better than just “EVIL SMASH!”

Also, like another poster, I do wish Helya and Mueh’zala got a bit of air time - not entirely sure why they’re just “chilling” but Anduin and Sylvanas are getting a workout (beyond “hey focus on these guys who sell products!”)

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The Eternals were always pretty strong, people are just overreacting too much to the Archon’s failures, when in truth she’s probably just not very smart or not a fighter.

She at the least is not good at preventing knockdown or Anduin would have dramatically leapt off of her floating body after his stabbing!

I think you guys are underestimating how weakened Zovaal is compared to what he used to be. So the Primus can fight him to a stalemate in the Maw? Big deal. It took all of the Eternals working together to defeat Zovaal originally and strip him of his power and status.

It seems obvious to me that Zovaal has not regained his true power yet, despite all his armies and the anima Denathrius has given to him. THAT is why he has to rely on proxies like Sylvanas, that is why he has to use tools like Anduin to have any kind of edge or hope of regaining what was taken from him.

Let’s see how well the Primus fairs against the Jailer once Zovaal has regained his sigil from the Arbiter. It will be interesting to see how much of a match they are then.

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That’s a good point and I guess I really hadn’t considered it too much. I guess I thought of it more as “he’s just trapped in the Maw” as opposed to the more obvious (and likely correct) fact that “he’s depowered and trapped in the Maw.”

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I mean did people really think he likes wearing prisoner rags and chains?

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Lol no it wasn’t that as much as I didn’t really think about it when thinking of him and the Primus fighting there.

Also, yes, I think he’s quite fond of that attire (kidding)

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It might also be worth considering that technically, the Jailer’s current power isn’t necessarily “his.” He’s basically been doing what he’s doing since gaining relative freedom by way of the tools and methods that were used to contain him in Torghast, which he’s subverted and redirected toward his own purposes.

So the power he’s using at this time could be largely derived from things designed by the Primus to lock him up, meaning the Primus may uniquely know how to counter them.

Consequently, if the Jailer gets out and regains the power he had before his imprisonment (i.e. before he had to rely on stuff that someone else built and empowered), that might no longer be the case.

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I agree with everything you just said, though I have one bit to add regarding the Archon. I think the Archon was holding back against Devos, wanting to redeem her rather than kill her, and Devos took advantage of that.

They didn’t have the high ground. After all, having the high ground makes you win when you are the good guy vs a recently turned bad guy.

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The sad thing is they’ve done it elsewhere.

In SC2 it was never really justified why Amon was arbitrarily able to overpower and wipe out the rest of the Xel’naga in the Void when they were from the Void too. At least Sargeras had the theoretical excuse of being made resistant to the fel by spending ages dealing with demons, allowing him to absorb it from Mardum when the other titans were burned away by it. But with Amon there was no real excuse given for him to just inexplicably be more powerful in the same realm that was home to the other Xel’naga, as if somehow despite being from the Void, they were unfamiliar with its power and he was a master of it.
Or for that matter, why the power of just one Xel’naga being transferred to Kerrigan allowed her to destroy Amon, when the whole Xel’naga race was apparently eradicated by him.

He even says himself that he’s killed many other Xel’naga in the place where the final battle takes place. So he just…went bad, and suddenly could exterminate an entire species of entities whose psionic powers and Void-based natures were just like his. Followed by Kerrigan doing the same thing with no qualifying reason provided.

That said, it wasn’t exactly after-the-fact that the fel explanation was given. We essentially found out about the titans’ deaths in the same part of Chronicle that revealed them being vulnerable to the fel. The same paragraph, really. Prior to Chronicle, we didn’t actually know what had become of the titans since departing Azeroth, and up to that point it seemed probable that they had simply left because their immediate work was done, and they were just continuing to reorder other worlds “out there,” unaware that in their wake Sargeras was systematically tearing down everything they were creating.

It was even implied in the WotA novels, when Mannoroth expressed legitimate concern at being told about demigods potentially aiding the defenders, as if to suggest that he was afraid the Legion had finally caught up with the Pantheon and might be up against something they weren’t prepared to face without Sargeras himself physically present yet.

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Amon did have allies within the Xel’naga. He wasn’t the only one who felt the way that he did. Duran / Nurad for example (whom was his right hand). I believe all but Duran was killed in Amons little coup attempt. So Duran continued his masters experiments to find a way to resurrect him. Although blizzard does have a tendency to not clearly communicate such things.

Not even Algalon was made aware of the Titans deaths. He just continued as planned believing that they still lived. The only people on Azeroth prior to Legion who knew that the Titans were killed was Ra-den and Lei Shen. The latter being told such by the former. Granted that was from chronicles. God it is weird trying to explain things like this. Curse you retcons!!!

You’re pretty explicitly told as a viewer in 5.2 with the Wrathion Legendary Questchain when he eats the heart of Lei Shen, which was 3 years before Chronicle Volume 1.

What makes me like Zovaal in this scenario is that he’s never won by pure strength alone. He’s also an honorless and underhanded fighter. He’s more of a schemer than a brute force fighter, although he’s more than capable of doing that as well.