I didn’t report your post. And I’m not the one attacking people for not being Pro Blue. So whatever this faux hostility is, I’m not interested.
And I didn’t know you were a person of color, nor is that relevant to you being hostile towards me for not being Pro Blue. So take your attitude and kindly shove off with it
It would be one thing if the matter of signals had been communicated before hand. We have no evidence of this. It would be another matter if it was openly communicated to them, as we saw was entirely possible the whole way through with Sylvanas yelling to Wrynn. It is very clear the Alliance figures out what the horns meant, yes, but that’s the difference between telling someone you are leaving the house, and them figuring this out because they see you drive down the road, all the while you are supposed to be building a shelf together, and you’re standing their holding up the frame.
You know you’re way too invested in the lore of a video game when your feelings on the subject equate bad storytelling to… actual racism. Like, that’s a big threshold to be crossing, and an even bigger accusation to be making of Blizzard.
No Arkturas, Varian and Genn were supposed to have meta-knowledge beforehand that the horns meant specifically, “We’re retreating because our leader has fallen”.
I mean. They knew that it meant they were retreating. Did it matter what reason?
But the difference at question isn’t nearly as pronounced. If Sylvanas shouted this versus the horn sounding, it isn’t the equivalent of ‘out the house and down the road’. We’re talking about the difference between a preordained signal and a longer explanation of that same thing, that retreat is necessary.
Telling them why seems irrelevant. If they think ‘the retreat horn means betrayal’ then they could as much conclude ‘her telling us they need to retreat is a lie to betray us’.
When it’s the difference between betrayal, abandonment and “we’re getting our butts kicked, we can’t hold”? Very much so.
They were dealing with Sylvanas after all. And they have the Wrathgate, and the Broken Front at Mord’rethar (Just looked up the name) as precedence here.
Then if she shouted it, they could just say ‘she’s lying’ as much as ‘the horn isn’t a retreat of necessity’.
You’re the one who came here with a chip on the shoulder. Being rude, insulting factions, generally having a haughty and dismissive attitude.
Don’t act under attack because people threw your opinion in the trash for suggesting I guess players should’ve guessed your ethnicity. Which is unfair because you’re excuding some big Karen energy regardless of your ancestry.
I’ve argued before I don’t think the Alliance is inherently white coded as the Forsaken, Sin’Dorei and Goblins are and I think Stormind can’t be coded as anything. It’s just plain.
Of course they could. But it would give them much less of a leg to stand on. And in either case, she’d be leaving. So they’d have to make a choice.
In any event, warning them of their retreat would’ve left the Horde blameless (for once) and would’ve made Genn’s attack on Sylvanas in Stormheim seem brash and foolhardy instead of deserved.
Why? Both these scenarios (if we’re assuming a betrayal) require wide-spread Horde collusion given all their leaders were present at that battle. Unless they’re speculating some weird scenario where Sylvanas tricked the Horde into retreating in a battle where all their leaders are present, which seems quite a reach.
I don’t believe in a scenario where Sylvanas says ‘we’re retreating’ at that moment (instead of a horn) and Varian/Genn say ‘she’s betraying/abandoning us’ that people would feel different. That seems fabricated.
Like you and your ilk aren’t? Every single time a night elf fan expresses some sort of grief at the story or god forbid, someone who plays a male human paladin says, “I don’t like the undead” and you all jump on him or her like a rabid pack of wolves?
Please don’t try playing the “holier than thou” card. I’ve seen what you guys do all the time.
I’m upset because bringing racial inequality into this whole argument in the first place is just an ugly path to take. Your concerns of lore are being twisted into something they’re not.
There’s other concerns I have related to this line of discussion that I won’t even bring up because it doesn’t belong here, frankly.
gonna be honest i thought the leveling up experience of TBC handled the legion better than the level up experience and end game questing experience of legion.
Nope. It only takes the command of one person: The Warchief.
And even then, it was pretty evident that Sylvanas was in command of that attacking force on the Broken Shore.
Again, you fail to mention precedent of Horde betrayal and infighting here. The Wrath Gate. The Broken Front. Vol’jin’s Rebellion.
How can the Alliance trust the Horde doesn’t have ill, backstabbing intentions when they have all evidence of the opposite in their history?
It’s impossible to say now since it never happened. In the end, Sylvanas had the full capability to do so, but she did not. And I think it was intentional now, knowing what we know.
Are you new here? People make fun of the seemingly endless parade of level 10 NElf Forum posters who took Teldrassil wayyyyy too personally because there’s a lot of them.
To the point where I’m not unconvinced it’s not either just three different people or an elaborate joke.
There’s plenty of Nelf posters who I respect, Amadis for example, who give thoughtful responses and actually seem engaged with the lore.
Whereas no, I don’t respect people who seem to think I should personally feel bad for having to watch a cutscene or deeply believe my favorite faction should either be deleted from the game or made so different as to no longer have anything I liked about them in the first place.
It requires all the people to follow that command. We’re not only assuming Sylvanas has gained some sort of control or deal regarding Vol’jin to make him betray the Alliance, but that Thrall, Baine, and others are going along with some clearly unnecessary retreat.
You’re saying the Horde is a monolith that just follows commands in the same post as you’re talking about their proclivity for infighting and rebellion.
You’re misunderstanding my qualm in that comment. Again, it isn’t about whether or not the Alliance trust the Horde. We’re talking about whether Sylvanas saying ‘we’re retreating’ versus blowing a retreat horn is more trustworthy.
If the Alliance doesn’t want to trust the Horde, so be it. But at that point it isn’t a matter of saying it versus blowing a horn. They’re not buying it either way.
Well nothing can be said with 100% certainty, but I find it pretty easy to see people taking on this stance just given the fact saying something versus blowing the horn has essentially no difference in the knowledge given.
Why would Varian and Genn have more reason to believe Sylvanas’ words over her blowing a horn?
Yes, let’s just overlook the endless stream of Undead posters who do the same damn thing, but are praised and given pats on the back. 
The attack at the Broken Front was unnecessary, but it happened. And with full approval from the commander even. Do you think that was just forgotten and swept under the rug?
Is it not possible for them to be capable of both?
The Burning of Teldrassil. Didn’t see any division there.
"We’re retreating, our Warchief has fallen" -This can be clearly understood.
Horn is blown, dark rangers quietly move away from their roost -Are they retreating? Are they abandoning us on purpose? What’s the deal here?
And how do you know that for certain?
Because if they are for the moment, trusting her, and she throws them a huge bone here (no pun intended), then they know for sure what she is doing, and can confirm themselves later that “Hey, Vol’jin actually died. She wasn’t lying to us”, which would give them (maybe not Genn) less cause to outright attack her.
Would it matter to Jaina or Genn? Probably not. Jaina maybe. She probably wouldn’t have that huge hateboner later in Dalaran, attempting to deny the Horde entry. But Genn, it’d be interesting if he tried to twist the event into reasoning for attacking Sylvanas.
As it is now, his motivations were pretty grey when attacking Sylvanas in Stormheim. Mostly yes, it was for personal vengeance. But it was also for Varian, and the possibility that she abandoned them on purpose at the Broken Shore to maximize their casualties.
Had she warned them, then it would’ve only been for his personal vengeance, turning the grey moment into black. Even more so if he attempted to twist the situation to his advantage, with characters like Admiral Rogers jumping in on it. I personally would’ve even enjoyed this a lot to be fair.
The difference between these two is that one involves one sub-leader (a sky-reaver, whatever rank that is) and his soldiers. As compared to the entire Horde command going along with it in the moment.
In theory, but you’re just applying the standards as you want to rather than any consistent basis. In which case they aren’t really worthwhile metrics to use for judgment.
Addressing Teldrassil more in regards to the first point. With only two Horde leaders there, the rest had to more or less go with it or get screwed some time later. And even then clearly it was a situation that results in Saurfang’s splintering. He even tried to stop it in the moment.
A second volley launched, and that broke the shock that had paralyzed him. “No!” he roared.
“Stop firing! Stop!”
It was too late. The second barrage hit, and within moments, the lower half of the World Tree was engulfed in flames. The fire moved as if it were alive, climbing the tree, scrambling toward the city in the heights of its branches.
This wouldn’t really relate to the Broken Shore when the leaders were both present and had easy means/nothing to lose by going against just Sylvanas. Hence, again, without some widespread conspiracy.
But they can both be doubted equally, neither makes one more trustworthy than the other when they’re from the same source.
Because the source is that same in either instance.
But this requires them to follow up. Something we know they didn’t do anyway. There was never diplomatic follow-up on either side.
‘Did she retreat for good reason’ versus ‘was she telling the truth’, there’s no compelling reason to think one gets followed up over the other.
Heck, those characters could still rationalize that event thinking Sylvanas had him killed (which arguably played into it, the Jailer’s minion got her appointed).
If someone doesn’t trust the horn, I don’t see it making sense they trust most anything she tells them at face value. And you’d still have people saying ‘this was fair game, nothing she says should be trusted by Genn’.
You’re new here. Literally there’s like, six of us? Me, Nezmith, Gladwell, Ireanus, probably missing a few but not a lot.
But that’s exactly what they did in the War of Thorns.
Actually, in practice. Because we’ve seen examples of both.
At this point, you’re just twisting the evidence to fit your argument.
Making one’s intentions clear is a lot different from an ominous retreat with no reason as to why.
In the Broken Shore event, the Horde and Alliance are openly communicating with one another and coordinating an attack on two fronts. They keep in constant communication throughout and even team up at several points.
If Sylvanas let them know they’re retreating because they can’t hold/Vol’jin has fallen, they’re likely not going to suddenly not trust them here. Even in the event we got, Varian was in disbelief.
There is plenty of reason to think that they’d believe her word. But as I said before, we’ll ultimately never know.
Not immediately, but because it seemed so much like a betrayal and had all the hallmarks of one, they pretty much went with that belief. It’s not the first time Sylvanas has done something like this after all.
See my above reasoning for why there would be. They had the entire Broken Shore battle to go off of.
It’s a bit harder to rationalize that when Varian pretty much volunteered the Alliance to take the lion’s share of the threat and to leave the Horde to get wiped by trash.
Again, the battle up until that point had been coordinated perfectly.
More like you haven’t been here long enough.
I just described the difference, the entire Horde command was not at Teldrassil. It was two of them and one of them even tried to stop it when he became aware.
In which case you can’t just pick whichever one to suit your preference, they have to be held in equal regard in the analysis.
What am I twisting? We’re talking about a real difference between The Broken Shore and Teldrassil, the presence of these actors there in the moment able to do anything about the situation. Saurfang was the only leader at the burning and he did try to stop it.
At the end of the day, they’re the same person, though. The same person who tried to save Varian on his ship and who killed Liam. This is Sylvanas who (suspected and in truth) had a hand in the Wrathgate, who has had people tortured/experimented on, invaded Gilneas, enslaved their people, blighted the land various times, etc. Her saying something holds more weight than blowing a horn? I don’t consider that to be true.
But they did suddenly not trust them blowing their normal retreat signal. I don’t agree Sylvanas using words is some magic switch that earns their trust.
The horn can be distrusted and her words can be distrusted. I just don’t see these words as gaining any more trust than a signal horn. Because ultimately the intent Sylvanas had was at doubt in the end. They never questioned that she was retreating, just why she was doing it.
It wouldn’t be the first time she lied either. They can just go with that belief.
If anything, I think the idea of Vol’jin getting killed by a random felguard he can’t heal from makes it easier to rationalize it was a setup.
Then the horn should’ve be plenty.