How boring would this place be if everyone agreed?
As boring as pancakes with no syrup. It just can’t happen 
2 Likes
Hey, even Jaina throws a little shade at the Horde PC when you rescue her from Torghast.
I was very … “You know I could just leave you here?” I mean, of course I can’t if I want to progress that storyline, but still … there could not have been a worse moment to jab an elbow at the Horde PC than when Jaina requires them to escape the Maw.
7 Likes
That actually happened? If that’s the case, probably should’ve waited until everyone was in Oribos if she wanted to throw some shade.
1 Like
Yeah, she makes some offhanded comment about the Jailor “tormenting her with this Horde champion” or some nonsense when you first beat down her fire boss who’s been torturing her. She only really changes her tune when she realizes you’re THE Horde champion that bounced out of the Maw. I get she’s skeptical, but she was a little “edgy” about it being a Hordie to come save her. Elsa is a picky princess.
2 Likes
I’m not saying you should. Ever since we set the arbitrary goal of getting to 1k posts, I’ve been waiting on 1.5k, and now 2k.
1 Like
Well, let’s hold the phone here. We shouldn’t start monitoring our debates based on what crazy people want to argue. We can say Teldrassil was a genocide and SoO was a sacking, whether or not some people want to nitpick those definitions.
There’s no reason to immediately assume Blizzard is misusing those words when another, more reasonable explanation exists; they’re using those words correctly, but there’s no viable means of showing the full scope of the events in-game.
How do you show Teldrassil as a genocide without forcing a race-change on an arbitrary number of players with nelf characters? Cuz without that, any hard numbers of “X many night elves existed pre-Burning, now only Y number exists” fall apart when a bunch of player-characters can log in, gather up, take a SS and exceed whatever Y is. Keeping the numbers vague is the only reasonable approach. And if the numbers are vague, crazies will debate them. Short of lining up a bunch of nelf corpses from one end of Darkshore to the other (which would easily be the most terrible decision Blizz could do here), nothing they could show in-game would depict the scale.
The sacking of Orgrimmar would require a similar amount of work. Either you show it in the raid, where it suddenly becomes obtrusive to a progress-oriented aspect of gameplay, or you show it out of the raid where it’s more generally obtrusive. Having, say, the VoS AH burned and pillaged with rebels and loyalists rushing out is a fun visual, but now you’re interfering with people just trying to buy their materials or sell their transmog. And you’d need more than just the one building to really show it being sacked. So rather than intrude on gameplay, just say it’s sacked and move on.
And sure, you’re gonna get the nitpickiest people picking those nits because it’s not shown and only told. But they’d still nitpick even if it was shown. They’d be counting corpses and saying “nope, the dead nelf conga line’s only 5k deep. Ain’t enough to be a genocide” or “well, those buildings the looters are looting is only a small portion of the city, so not a true sacking”.
Nitpickers gonna nitpick. Really no sense in trying to fight it or stop it. Call it what it is and move on.
11 Likes
Y’know? As someone who was annoyed with Shandris giving me grief over helping her find her mom?
Jaina didn’t bother me. Maybe it’s because it was resolved quickly when she recognized me, maybe it’s the context that she’s been given a bunch of illusions (what’re you hiding???) to torment her, but the Jaina rescue was fine for me.
Meh, it didn’t so much bother me, it was just like “OK then … do you want me to just leave? I walked up 5 flights of stairs to get here y’know”. It was one of those offputting things that reminds me that the first instinct of anyone, even in hell, is to think Horde = Baddie with how Blizz wrote us into a corner.
Luckily my BoS is Maldraxxus, and I didn’t feel Ard fit either Goblins or Shammys well. So instead of Shandris Grief, I got to pal around with a shockingly palatable General Draka, and a delightfully aggro Keal’thas this week. He’s a big deal, but she has no idea who he is, so she doesn’t tolerate his nonsense. And he sees both the PC and Draka as obnoxious reminders of his homeworld. It was charming.
6 Likes
The “crazy” people, your words not mine, in question are people you’ve defended for what it’s worth.
On another note I agree. People will nitpick anything they can to justify their side of the argument. But it also comes down to opinion. The hard definition of genocide is “the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group” which is very clearly what Sylvanas goal was. But who gets to decide what a large number is? No one in here is going to agree on that. One side will claim the number wasn’t large enough and the other side will, rightfully imo, claim that the number is twice what it needs to be to qualify.
2 Likes
If it makes you feel better she declares the Jailer is tormenting her regardless of your faction when you show up.
We know what Sylvanas’s goal was. It wasn’t to “kill the night elf race” it was to “start a war that wouldn’t reasonably stop.” She wanted the Horde and Alliance to keep killing eachother. Thus, Ogmott’s dream journal:
Today the smoke rose from my campfire and took form.
A shepherd, cloacked in the shadows of her past, beloved by a flock of blind sheep.
She guided them over a cliff. Even as they crashed upon the rocks, they never doubted her.
The crows grew fat upon sheep flesh. Her laughter echoed all around.
1 Like
And on the flip side of that, this was never the Horde’s goal. Not in the WoT that Saufang designed, that required the survival of the NE civilization and leadership. Not in the actions of the Horde after, which were purely standard defensive Warfare. The Horde was used by Sylvanas to commit a Genocidal Act, but regardless of what her intent was … it wasn’t shared by the rest. As much as a moot technicality that is…
God, this story would have made so much more sense if Blizz had simply allowed the WoT to be justified with the precursor Alliance aggression; and then turned it into an entrapment narrative with Sylvie’s Burning of Teldrassil. With the Horde being too afraid of what would be seen as justified reprisal from the Alliance to weaken themselves enough to turn on Sylvanas. And thus the story would have been largely Sylvie trying to maintain the idea that the Blues were invested in a war of extermination against the Horde; while Anduin tried to disprove that. With agents on both sides frustrating their efforts.
It would have made for a more coherent story, even if not necessarily a more enjoyable playing experience for the Horde player. it would have also made way, WAY too much sense of a lot of odd story beets as they currently sit. Especially regarding Sylvanas and Anduin’s tactics in the War.
1 Like
Her goal was to capture Teldrassil and kill of Malfurion in order to demoralize the Night Elves and drive a wedge between them and the Alliance that would tie their hands. When that fell through she choose to go with eradicating every last man women and child left on Teldrassil. Sounds like genocide to me regardless of your fascination with Ogmott who really only supports that Sylvanas never had the Horde’s well being in mind. Unless you think the Alliance are Sylvanas’ flock of blind sheep.
2 Likes
The problem with this method of thinking is that it’s, to be harshly blunt, selfish of you. You’re still placing your enjoyment of the game over that of the players on the opposite side of the fence. That’s simply not okay. WoT is a bad story direction regardless of the numerous ways they could have chosen to handle it. WoT shouldn’t have happened period.
1 Like
I defend arguments I agree with. I’ve also disagreed with those same people, for what that’s worth.
And this is why, at heart, I disagree with the notion of waving off NPC’s statements. Comments like:
is just an excuse to wave off evidence that disputes a statement you might not agree with. Unless there’s proof the word is being used incorrectly, it’s a nothing retort. “Well, they could be lying” or “but that doesn’t match this other definition I found” are all worthless responses for a debate.
She admits later in her own post that it still likely wouldn’t be any more enjoyable for the horde player. It’s just that it would overall seem more coherent as a whole.
It’d just be “junk that makes sense” instead of just “incoherent junk”.
1 Like
It’s selfish of Horde players to want to be in the right for once?
1 Like
It’s selfish of Horde players to only want the situation to be improved for their enjoyment.
1 Like
Selfish of me how? For the Alliance to not constantly be insulated from their own odd shades of grey? For there to be any semblance of nuance in a two faction game, rather than what it currently is. With the Horde being forced to shoulder the flaws and “grey” alone, because the Alliance isn’t allowed either? Meaning the burden of those Red imperfections is augmented absurdly.
All I asked is for the attempted assassination of the Horde’s Warchief in SH; the slaughter of Bilgewater miners in Silithus; and the flooding of Org so full of SI:7 agents that civilians were literally tripping over them (to send the deliberate message that the Alliance was always watching) to actually count. Instead of the first and third being waived away; and the second being weakly justified with a completely nonsensical attack on the EL by the Gobs B4 the Alliance hit them. You know what’s truly unfair? Having the Alliance be completely validated in killing civilians of your PC race, because of a random attack on an Alliance group for no other reason than “LOL, they’re Goblins! Its wut de do!”
14 Likes