First off you said “some Sunreavers” but your own evidence indicates it was a single Sunreaver, an isolated event. Secondly, if I recall there was also a prominent Kirin Tor mage who was working for the Burning Legion.
How is this argument not a combination of confirmation bias and hypocrisy?
Fair enough, I was working off of memory before deciding to dig up the source before I was asked for it.
If you mean Archmage Vargoth, he was possessed by the Dreadlord discussed above. If not, well, I’m not sure what this has to do with Sunreavers betraying Dalaran like Jaina said would happen. Even if it was just 1.
Funny how the Sunreavers keep betraying Dalaran and every time its just 1 person. It’s almost like there are actually a lot more and they’re just waiting for their turn.
Because Jaina was right? She warned that the Horde would betray the Kirin Tor, and lo and behold, a Sunreaver did. Third times the charm?
But that’s the whole point, she’s only right if a single character being corrupted by the Burning Legion counts as betrayal by the Horde. But that’s a ridiculous standard and you’re only applying it in this particular case.
All the more ridiculous because we don’t know the circumstances around this corruption. You say Archmage Vargoth only betrayed the Kirin Tor because he was possessed by a Dreadlord, so you forgive him. Nameless Sunreaver could have been possessed by a Dreadlord, we don’t know. Nameless Sunreaver could have been a demon worshipping infiltrator who was only ever part of the Sunreavers for the opportunity to betray the Horde and Alliance both, we don’t know.
This is your evidence, and you’re using this to declare that Jaina was right. But you would never make this claim in any other circumstances. It is a stupid double standard and you are less for standing by it.
Well, that’s your opinion.
How many times does treason have to occur from within the ranks of the Sunreavers before its no longer just coincidence, and is actually a repeating pattern? Heck, we’ve got Hathorel basically admitting to knowing Garrosh played everyone, and choosing to stand beside Sylvanas, coming in 8.2.
Seriously, at what point do we stop giving the Sunreavers a pass and start holding them responsible for their actions, because I’d like to know. Until then this comes off as hypocrisy as well. Do we just keep saying, “Oh it was just ONE Sunreaver,” until there are no more Sunreavers left?
Yes, my opinion is that you’re smarter than you’re pretending to be. That you’ve chosen to position yourself dishonestly in a ridiculous argument for reasons of faction pride and not because it represents your honest views.
As for your series of begged questions. The answer is never if we use your standard because your standard is silly and any organization of 15 people or more has the real possibility of being infiltrated by magic means. Which is why it has happened to literally EVERY group of 15 people or more in the World of Warcraft.
Change your standard of ‘betrayal’ to something that makes sense and we can talk. But I warn you, as soon as you do that, you won’t have as many examples and run the risk of saying something useful.
Nope. I sincerely believe the Sunreavers are at guilt for their actions, and I find every argument in their defense to essentially be hypocrisy unto itself.
The entirety of Quel’Thalas blames the Alliance for the actions of Garithos/Arthas, and uses that as justification to nurse a massive hate-on and thump their chests in Horde pride, but when the opposite happens it’s raised as living proof of the Alliance’s prejudice and racism against the Blood Elves.
“Rawr! Garithos/Arthas were mean to us! The Alliance betrayed us, not just these two pricks, both of whom had outside influences acting on them!”
“Pfft… Thalen Songweaver was just ONE guy! All the Sunreavers aren’t bad.”
“The Theft of the Divine Bell was just a COUPLE of guys, how dare you accuse the whole organization!”
“So ONE guy in Legion disabled the defenses of Dalaran. He was probably mind-controlled by the Legion, which is fine because he’s a Blood Elf. It’s only a bad thing if you’re a Human named Garithos or Arthas.”
“So Hathorel and a couple of guys are standing by Sylvanas and betraying Dalaran by violating the Kirin Tor’s neutrality to support the Horde’s war. Seriously, the Sunreavers AREN’T AT FAULT!”
Do you see why I find this whole topic to be dumb?
Yeah, but that’s not what we’re discussing. What you’re saying, if you will recall,
Is that the Horde is at guilt for the actions of a single agent of the Burning Legion.
Well, based on your fan fiction depiction of the discussion. You find the topic dumb because you don’t understand it.
The question is, why are you intentionally misunderstanding what is a rather simple topic?
Yup, because the Horde see’s the Alliance as guilty for the actions of single agents under the control of the Burning Legion.
And another change of topic. Most people grow out of the “no you” defense in grade school.
So I’m going to take this as a concession that you recognize your position is untenable and I’m going to move on. You of course may continue to repeat your ridiculous claim but be aware, irrational partisans are a dime a dozen on this forum. They are easily dismissed by the people they disagree with, and rarely cited by people on their side. You’ll do yourself no favors by opting to be one.
Well jaina even as the head of the council doesn’t have the authority to break dalaran’s neutrality. The council of 6 must vote and if it is a tie the council head breaks the tie. Besides dalaran pulls it’s strength from all the races of azeroth and if they break their neutrality they lose a huge part of their mages with the sunreavers and wouldnt be capable of using their city as a floating fortress against the horde as we have the blood elves and nightborne that could blow it out of the sky.
Yeah, I think the point of that particular quest is that it might trigger old hatreds and distrust. One sunreaver turned out to be a legion agent. So did ALOT of others from every other source. The fact that SI:7 was being run by a Dreadlord for the first half of the war doesn’t mean it was a mistake for Dalaran to accept the Alliance back into the city.
Going ‘Jaina was right!’ over that highlights what I think the main issue the BEs had and why the believed it showed bigotry. That being, that BEs are assumed to all be corrupt or guilty due to the acts of individuals when no other group in the Kirin Tor is treated the same way and the Kirin Tor has had some dozys when it comes to traitors and betrayers.
It gives me great pain that the BEs most represented spellcaster in the game’s narrative is such a idiotic baffoon who frankly is such a Kirin Tor fanboy that I genuinely question how loyal to the Blood Elves he actually is if push came to shove. I mean he literally voted for the Kirin Tor to side with Jaina in Tides of War and he had no idea about the Mana bomb plan.
Why couldn’t some Mage Player push him off a cliff somewhere out in Argus. How tragic! Brave Aethas ‘fell’ to the Burning Legion.
we could say he Fel.
Would be cool to see a Horde equivalent of Dalaran. A combined effort of the might and abilities of the Sin’dorei, Nightborne, and Forsaken Magisters to create an organization that is still sorta neutral (like Dal) but with focus on issues those races find important.
It bugs me that humans are better at magic than races that are literally steeped in it.
I remember in Cataclysm when I heard Orcs were getting Mages, I fervently hoped that it would be part of a story like this.
To this day I really wish some aspiring Orc Mage decided to reform the Stormreaver Clan in an attempt to redeem it’s name and provide magical support to the Horde, receiving support from Horde Mages in the process.
I didn’t believe that would happen for a second. Blizzard had the horde working with the Kirin Tor while they were still enemies in WoD. If adding blood elves to the horde didn’t give them real magic representation outside of Silvermoon, then I don’t think any race would.
So a ‘heal the world’ plotline is the kind of thing that would be available to both factions. If it is to run concurrently with the ongoing faction war storyline, Jaina being prominently featured as an Alliance asset in that war would make her appearance as a neutral ‘heal the world’ proponent unlikely. If she appeared at all it would be akin to her appearance in the Khadgar storyline during Warlords of Draenor. A brief pop in to praise the Alliance, throw shade at the Horde and then do her job.
If the ‘heal the world’ plotline happens after the ongoing war storyline. Then I have to remember that Jaina and Thrall acted as voices of reason to counter balance Shaw and Saurfang during the Baine rescue scenario. She said a little “Teldrassil must be avenged” but ended with “but shut up Shaw, we’re all here to do the same job.” Couple that with a newly empowered Thrall being a natural fit to heal the wounds of Azeroth and the two of them working together after the faction conflict ends feels right.
So. No, I don’t see her working with Dalaran.
It looks good in your head, but it’s almost a given that a Horde magic organization would be violent, sinister, and covered with spikes, in contrast to the peaceful joy in the search for pure knowledge that happens in Dalaran. Plus, the writers would write all magic-based storylines for Dalaran and then shove the Horde magic-spiky organization into them whether it made sense or not.
Well I don’t see the issues with spikes but yeah the rest would probably be true.
Spikes are fine on their own, but first, they should be superfluous on a thing that’s all about magic (it should have its own magical defenses). And secondly, they’re an example of how Blizzard would slap the orc aesthetic on a city that was proposed to be built by Blood Elves, Nightborne, and Forsaken, just to make sure everyone knows it’s “Horde.”
Oh I see. Your playing a Blood Elf and saying ‘well they would just be superfluous’. For the high standard of the people of Quel’Thalas it isn’t enough to do something well. We need to look damn good doing it. Cosmetic features are by their nature superfluous.
There are a few core truths that anyone who becomes part of the Horde just come to understand in their soul. One of those truths is you can NEVER have too many spikes. Ever. Want them to be golden and ornate. Well ok. But you will have those damn spikes. If possible see if you can mount some spikes on your spikes.