Skipping bosses leveling

Thank you for finally getting the point. Blizzard tends to put bosses that are clearly designed to be optional (via alt routes or no barriers blocking passage) in the “you must kill these bosses to continue” list. Which is a contradiction. By definition those bosses should not be on that list as they are clearly designed to be optional.

Court of Stars has doors blocking other routes, forcing you to kill the bosses in order and that one uses an outdoor space for majority of the dungeon. Necrotic Wake is the same. There is even a barrier preventing you from skipping Blightbore. How come the same wasn’t done for the bridge after Skycaptain in Freehold or the first two bosses in Plaguefall? Or an invisible wall blocking the bridge to Harlen until you kill the council and the arena boss?

My guess is people skipping Augh because he does take a while to become attackable after you kill lockmaw on heroic. See it sometimes in timewalking too. According to Wowpedia, there hasn’t been any hotfixes or patch notes involving Lockmaw other than preventing you from doing the cheese strat, where you had the group stand on the croc statues and you tanked him inside the building along with some bug fixes. But nothing involving him being forced to be killed in order to get to Siamat.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Lockmaw#Patches_and_hotfixes

Sidenote, what is with your quotes lol. Are you like getting rid of the person you are quoting so they won’t get a ping that you replied to them?

You’re kinda missing the point, which is what the rest of the sentence goes into. They are >not< “clearly designed” to be “optional” just because there is no (for example) barrier.

Maybe it’s better if I describe some of the things that I’ve encountered in development. Occasionally, there’ll be a ticket that comes across to us, the idea behind “X should do Y”. There are many responses that can happen, some of which signal intent or a specific design idea, some of which do not, and some of which are based on concerns that have nothing to do with design intent. For example, here is a nowhere-near-exhaustive list of potential calls, and every company takes different stances at different points, and some of these involve decisions not by developers, but by product owner/project manager type people. That’s a lot of disclaimers, but hopefully it’s clear why:

  • sometimes we disagree.
  • sometimes we disagree, and signal back that it’s working as intended (in issue tracking software, this might be a resolution of “Won’t Do” as opposed to “Won’t Fix”).
  • sometimes we might agree on that, and do it.
  • sometimes we’ve already internally discussed that it should not behave that way for whatever reason (and that reason may not be available to whoever made the ticket)
  • sometimes we might agree that it’s a good idea in principle but decide it doesn’t need changing. There’s variations on this like “It’s annoying, but not yet a problem”, or “It’s a problem, but it’s not worth the fix at this point in time”.
  • sometimes we might agree that we should but there’s X Y and Z tasks that are higher priority first (and since there’s always new tasks, a specific ticket might always get bumped down in priority and not handled for years).
  • sometimes we agree but will only get around to it if we’re doing a change in a related area (what with every change needing a certain amount of testing, QA, and what not).
  • sometimes we’ll think about it, but we’ll get back to the customer that we’re only prepared to do it if they pay us $$ to do it, since we can argue no one else wants that functionality/behaviour (ofc, nothing stops us from then marketing that to someone else later)

How come the same wasn’t done for the bridge after Skycaptain in Freehold or the first two bosses in Plaguefall? Or an invisible wall blocking the bridge to Harlen until you kill the council and the arena boss?

I can’t answer that for you, since I wasn’t part of their internal discussions. I can speculate on a few possibilities, but it could get really long.

My guess is people skipping Augh because he does take a while to become attackable after you kill lockmaw on heroic. See it sometimes in timewalking too. According to Wowpedia …

No, I’m talking Lockmaw specifically. Unfortunately, neither wowpedia nor wowhead are great at capturing that kind of information, especially since we’re going back a full decade. And also like I said, it might have been on a PTR build before even going to Live, in which case it wouldn’t really be “patch documentation”.

Sidenote, what is with your quotes lol. Are you like getting rid of the person you are quoting so they won’t get a ping that you replied to them?

It’s just the > shorthand. I’ve had plenty of practice using that so it’s easy for me to type that on the fly, and coincidentally in Blizz’s editor that doesn’t attach post history metadata the way [quote] does. But I don’t care about that last part.

Maybe there’s an analogy to be made there about intent vs consequence.

So if I can skip the boss and get to the final boss, that boss is optional. There is no arguing about that. That is using the definition of optional. If blizzard puts in an alt route or does not put up a barrier blocking passage passed the boss, that boss is optional. No idea why you are trying to argue against the clear definition of a word. The contradiction comes from when blizzard puts these kind of bosses in the “must kill” list when clearly you do not have to kill them. How hard is that for you to understand? The last “optional boss” according to Blizzard was the spider boss in Everbloom for dungeons. But that is simply not true. Note that I do not count bosses that can be skipped when you out level them and bypass them because of that. If there is no barrier preventing you from skipping the boss, but the boss is directly in front of you and there is no way to avoid the boss without pulling them, the boss is not optional.

I only consider things on live servers as PTR means it is in development. So if you have to kill Lockmaw on live, you have to kill him. If that change came during the PTR it is irrelevant. PTR are not live servers.

We’re back at “linguistic definitions don’t always work that way when it comes to code/design”. Please at least pretend to read the surrounding context to the part you quote, rather than acting as if your brain shut down .

Sidenote: It’s even debatable whether that’s how players as a whole think; from my anecdotal experience of … many NW runs done while levelling, not a single one has even talked about, or skipped Globgrog or Ickus.

I only consider things on live servers as PTR means it is in development. So if you have to kill Lockmaw on live, you have to kill him. If that change came during the PTR it is irrelevant. PTR are not live servers.

You can do whatever you want, but Alpha, Beta, PTR, Live make no real difference to the effect of making a code change as a dev. If a dev picks up a ticket going “This should do this”, it’s the same to them to wrap the change into a commit/branch, get it code reviewed, and it gets merged down. There doesn’t even have to be a clear correlation from when a change gets made, and which release it gets bundled in with.

If anything, the ideal is for design intent changes (and is X boss considered optional would count) to happen while in development, for obvious reasons.

NW is plaguefall now? O.o

I’ve tanked some heroic plaguefalls where a dps cried because I pulled those two bosses. Some people just want to see the world burn and blizzard lets them do it.

If blizzard wants these bosses to actually be “must kill”, then tell them to stop putting alt routes that completely bypass them or put up barriers that block players from bypassing them. You can argue all you want, but it doesn’t change the following fact. If you can skip them and reach the final boss. They are optional. That is the truth.

What in the hell are friends?

They’re people who can stand to be around you even after you’re verbally abusive to them because you don’t know how to express positive emotion.

You’re… you can’t be serious. O_o

1 Like

You know what I meant; clearly typed the wrong one on the fly.
So you’ve had >some< runs where >one< person cried about a boss that dies in … 20-30 seconds? Doesn’t quite make it a norm.

If blizzard wants these bosses to actually be “must kill”, then tell them to stop putting alt routes that completely bypass them or put up barriers that block players from bypassing them. You can argue all you want, but it doesn’t change the following fact. If you can skip them and reach the final boss. They are optional. That is the truth.

Nah, I’m perfectly happy as it is. Feel free to ignore how development works, and go to Blizzard HQ and yell about how English works, tho.
Although if we’re getting down the linguistics route, I don’t believe they actually say anything is “must kill” either.

And yet they have two lists. One of them is a list of bosses that you generally have to kill to complete the dungeon. The other is a list of optional bosses. The problem is when blizzard puts optional bosses in the former and not the latter. Which is why I said “generally have to kill”, so don’t get any ideas.

I fail to see how development fits into this. If a boss can be skipped, it is optional. You can dance around this reality all you want. Doesn’t change the fact that it is true. Still have no idea why you think it is the opposite. Facts (in this case definitions) don’t care about your feelings, love.

So you can give anecdotal experience but I can’t?

What? How did you get there from me literally taking your anecdote at face value?

And yet they have two lists. One of them is a list of bosses that you generally have to kill to complete the dungeon. The other is a list of optional bosses.

Well, technically speaking, if we’re going for word definitions, what they have is a list of bosses under the heading Dungeon, and a list of Bonus Objectives. I don’t use base UI so I Googled this image to demonstrate.

Even the word “optional” does not appear anywhere in that screenshot.

I tried to work with you on the context of the design, but if that’s beyond your capability, hopefully the fact that you’re obsessing on the definition of a word that doesn’t apply speaks for itself.

I fail to see how development fits into this. If a boss can be skipped, it is optional. You can dance around this reality all you want. Doesn’t change the fact that it is true. Still have no idea why you think it is the opposite. Facts (in this case definitions) don’t care about your feelings, love.

This is covered in several posts above around the quotes that you cherry-picked. I’m not going to repeat myself to compensate for your inability to read. If you’re still confused, go back and read them again, fully this time.

You also need to figure out how to read (and what facts are) rather than quote bad memes. No one is debating you on the dictionary definition of optional. If you want to have an imaginary conversation, go right ahead, but I have zero interest in engaging with that.

Okay now you are just arguing semantics. I wonder what bonus objectives means? Optional content… And you say that I can’t read probably. LOL

You just can’t admit that you are wrong. Stop simping for blizzard.

And yet you are. You are saying that bosses that can be skipped are not optional because of some BS reasons.

You literally went with the word definitions angle, and are objecting to “semantics”? That’s one heavy heaping of irony right there.

PS: Bonus Objectives doesn’t mean “optional content”. That’s an inference you’re trying to apply based on the context. I have no problem with that inference, but the idea of using it to hold Blizzard to the dictionary definition of a word they don’t use is just absurd. On top of that, there are alternative interpretations for not just this context, but other contexts.

And yet you are. You are saying that bosses that can be skipped are not optional because of some BS reasons.

This is a failure of reading on your part. Some examples of what I’ve actually said are things like “They are not clearly designed to be optional”, or “Skipping them isn’t considered normal/intended gameplay”. Those have very different meanings to the words you just used. In summary - “linguistic definitions don’t always work that way when it comes to code/design. Intention only really matters from their PoV.”

You’ve clearly made up some other imaginary person you’re having a conversation with about this, so I’m done on this topic. If you want to bring the discussion back to something intelligent and relevant at any point, go right ahead.

Stop simping for blizzard.

“You also need to figure out how to read (and what facts are) rather than quote bad memes”

Yes they do. If something is a bonus objective, it is an objective that you can elect to do. You do not have to complete it to complete the main objective (which is killing the final boss). Therefore making them optional. In an RTS game, bonus objectives that quests that you do not have to do in order to complete the mission. For example, in the first Night Elf mission in WC3: RoC, you do not have to rescues all the furbogs to complete the mission. The only things you have to do is build up your base, train a few units and kill the human Paladin. Because those tasks are listed as main objectives.

If you want to make this argument you need to provide examples. Just saying there are other meanings of “bonus objectives” in other contexts doesn’t mean that there is. You need to provide examples. Learn what burden of proof is.

And yet blizzard intentionally provides methods to do so with their dungeon design. Such as provides alternative routes or not providing a blockable wall preventing you from skipping them. But in your fantasy world that doesn’t count. Because blizzard actually providing alternative routes that allows you to skip bosses that are not marked as “bonus objectives” is not intentional game design for some reason. Like what do you think I am talking about here? Bosses that you can skip by out leveling them and running past? I clearly stated at the start that I am considering these at the level they are intended to be done at.

Poor baby knows they lost the argument so they had to resort to semantics and dancing around argument fallacies. Now they are quitting. If a boss can be skipped, they are optional. The fact that you continue to refuse to accept that reality means that YOU are the one who needs to learn how to read and what facts are. Deal with it and grow up.

The irony coming from the lady who believes skippable bosses and bonus objectives are not “optional content”.

You get a metric ton of EXP for the completion bonus, and only the final boss is required of any dungeon for credit on that. This means that BfA dungeon leveling is theoretically the fastest because you can skip straight to the last boss of Freehold and can do it in a minimum of ~4 trash pulls. Comparatively, I can waste 10 more minutes clearing the extra trash and bosses and get, maybe, 1/6th of that EXP extra–a complete waste of time when the dungeon’s completion can be hit in 5 minutes.

People lose their minds when I do this, but they never vote to kick my characters, and I can solo on with them by just pulling smaller. I’m there to level my alts, not gear them on some horrible RNG gambling.