First of all, him freeing Derek Proudmoore was already taking a significant risk, which lead to this very moment. Even still, Sylvanas calls out Zelling, at which point Baine speaks up of his own free will, claims responsibility, and accuses her of betraying the Horde in front of the entire Horde leadership. This gets Zelling killed and himself arrested. To say he never stood up to her, or took no risk upon himself when his actions got him arrested and tortured, is objectively wrong, dishonest and mind boggling coming from someone whose mantra is “you are not entitled to your own facts”. I know you specifically don’t like being found to be objectively wrong, but in this case you are, and if you are not going to accept that there is no use continuing.
Lor’themar said this in BfA, not In Cataclysm. I don’t know what his thoughts are on Baine at the time. Sindorei and Forsaken are also an ocean away. The easier answer would have been Vol’jin.
I’ve always thought Baine should have seen Theramore’s (Jaina’s) invasion of the Barrens as a monstrous betrayal. She was cutting the tauren off from their allies and apparently didn’t bother to send him a message telling him of her reasons for doing so, despite being such good friends with him.
Vol’jin was a given, so that went without saying. But without the Blood Elves and Forsaken, it would have just been the Orcs and some Goblins against the Tauren, Night Elves, and Theramore’s forces. We saw how Garrosh’s Orcs fared on their own.
Until Chronicle came out everyone was confused about what the canon of this even was, given that Theramore questing was still stuck in pre-Cataclysm era and there was no context of when Theramore got involved with Garrosh’s war, or if those soldiers even really were from Theramore.
I don’t think the Siege of Orgrimmar is a fair comparison, as Garrosh was essentially already defeated with the entirety of the Horde against him. The point I was making is simply, from Baines perspective, after the trauma of his own father being killed and his kingdom ( or nation) almost conquered by the Grimtotems, it is reasonable for him to calculate that turning on Garrosh right then and there would have just been a disaster and further hurt his people, and that it was better to instead rejoin the Horde and attempt to hopefully quell and calm Hellscreams war mongering.
It is easy for us as the readers and objective observers to make absolute judgements, but we have to try and view things from the lens of the characters.
I just hate the fact that he was written to have zero spine about that whole incident.
Get mad about it. Press the Alliance on their incredibly weak justifications of the massive civilian casualties. Don’t roll over like a dog eager to please.
Doesn’t the alliance do this too? The Spires of Arak latrine couple that was sneaking away to fool around together? I thought the alliance NPC that does it was a worgen.
This is true. This actually is an example of him…not exactly standing up to Sylvanas, but subverting her rule, anyway. It actually did involve risk.
It is also typical Baine. He did the same thing with Garrosh when he snuck a message to the Alliance about the attack on Theramore. In fact, Garrosh counted on Baine doing something like that. The problem is that these are not exactly heroic ways to oppose a super villain. Apparently they work for you, but it is clear that most players see his actions as kind of lame.
Oh, please. Were you born yesterday? Do you think Sylvanas staged that whole thing because Zelling? Called all the faction leaders together. Makes a big entrance, talking about traitors (plural), talks right up to Baine, and then whirls around to Zelling. It was obviously a set-up, and the target was Baine. He knew it, we knew it, she knew it. The purpose was to make an example in front of everyone else.
Edit: Gallywix was literally selling tickets to watch it go down.
What’s mind-boggling is that you watched that scene and thought “Wow, Baine almost got away with it if he hadn’t spoken up for Zelling. Why, Sylvanas had no idea it was him!”
Yeah, you should probably take your ball and go home.
In the meantime, I still think Blizzard needs to have Baine do something unequivocally fierce and heroic, “for the Horde!”
Not what I said. It was who she confronted specifically though, not Baine. Whether it was really to get Baine is irrelevant. He had the choice in this situation to remain silent, he didn’t. He stood up to her.
Not what I said. I said he stood up to her, which he did. He had the choice to remain silent, whether it would have worked or not is ultimately irrelevant. The choice was there. He could have denied all involvement, he chose not to. He loudly admitted it was him who completely foiled her plan and his reasoning for doing so, afterwards he was arrested and tortured. Little bit bigger deal than being fired and “venting”.
Sylvanas 4d chess game and setting Baine up is irrelevant to the fact that in that moment he made the choice to stand up to her, call her out, however else you want to label it, when he did not at all have to, especially in front of the rest of the Horde.
And the narrative purpose of the scene was to show not only Sylvanas ruthlessness, but Baine standing up to Sylvanas in the face of her ruthlessness and being arrested for it. You can disagree with whether that was done effectively or not, but he did stand up to her. That’s literally all I am saying.
It’s a very simple statement “Baine did stand up to Sylvanas”, with a cutscene behind it, which in truth doesn’t even effect the premise of your topic nor change your interpretation of events (as we can still say what he did was not enough, or too little too late, etc), yet you refuse to concede it.
It’s funny that you say that since up until Cataclysm, I played primarily Horde. I jumped ship when WoW decided to turn them into villains and the playerbase goaded them on.
In my eyes, that’s when they effectively ceased to be the Horde I knew and instead became something completely alien and disgusting. Unfortunately, that seems to be the Horde everyone else loves now and wants back.
I doubt this will help at all as long as the same writers obsessed with portraying him as “Anduin + Jaina´s No. 1 super shill braindead cheerleader” continue with their agenda (which basically translates as the HUGE need to remove some heads in the creative department of Blizzard HQ; especially in regards to the leadership).
Unfortunately for Baine, it´s too little too late cause he has been consistently portrayed as a cowardly damsel in distress with too little nuts to directly oposse his ideological enemies in the Horde and with a perchant to resort to badly executed covert “plots” to “fight for his cause”.
Oh, and him being consistently portrayed as apparently very apathetic in regards to any actual gross crime (like you know, Teldrassil or especially crimes involving his faction -like Taurajo or those Tauren dissolving in Blight on Lordaeron-) but him becoming ubber offended when someone touches his fwends (A.K.A. the character´s he´s a shill like Blanduin or Tragicmoore) doesn´t help his image AT ALL.
I don´t care if he has strenght to crush an enemy when him 9.9 times out of 10 will cowardly pretend he´s a weaksauce, will try to crush the aforementioned enemy on a covert manner more proper of a rogue than of him AND will 9.99999 times out of 10 use those dirty tactics against the Horde if this benefits his besties Anduin and/or Jaina (you know, instead of making the sensible choice and trying to gather help from the other Horde leaders like good ol´Vol´jin did in MoP).
Baine is NOT a character, he´s a narrative tool designed to bring the “muh super special and awesome God King Blanduin and muh poor wittle innocent Jaina Tragicmoar” narrative to the Horde players, no more and no less. As long as the same writers that have consistently used him for such narrative plots keep the creative power, nothing Baine does will erase the fact he´s garbage, period.
Baine knew he was caught, Sylvanas knew he was caught. That’s why she gathered all the leaders together and staged the whole event: to make an example. Of Baine. Not Zelling. Zelling is just a poor schmuck who got dragged into it. He’s disposable. As we see.
You are writing as if Baine could have kept silent and gotten away with it. He could not. That was not an option. You are missing the point if you watch that video and don’t understand that Baine was busted right from the start. When he vents at Sylvanas, he already knows that she knows and is killing Zelling just to toy with him.
Not to mention: Baine being Baine, all he does in that moment is talk. Where’s the Mak’gora challenge? He had nothing left to lose and he still doesn’t throw down. Again, just like with Garrosh.
Blizzard needs to fix him. Not for you, clearly, but so that the majority of players don’t think he’s a joke. Or give us the AU Baine.
Don´t waste your time, you´re talking to the same individual that made a thread in December - January mocking Vol´jin as a “coward”. I suspect the troll siamese lacks basic self awareness and has a nasty perchant for double standards…
If AU Baine still insist in gifting body parts to a teenager cause “muh amazing human potential buddy”, he´s still garbage… just garbage more prone to violent episodes but garbage still.
I am ignoring your typical dishonest condescending reply Carm. I explained myself, it was self evident and there was an in game cutscene to show it. I’m sorry it does not fit your denial of a petty fact. Have a good day.
This is the entire Story Forums in a nut shell and massive projection on your part.
I have seen people who attempt to give their honest opinion mocked, ganged up on, their intelligence belittled, and then outrageously called a troll for simple disagreements over a story as terrible and childish as World of Warcraft lmao. I play by the same toxic unwritten laws established by the cliques who think they own this place. It deserves absolutely no respect, and may it be cursed with a plague of even more General Discussion posters! A pox on all your houses!
So Baine has that in common with him, cool.
Equating Sylvanas “Melt Them All and Raise Their Corpses” Windrunner to The Big E is very silly. If anything, Sylvanas is Horus, seduced by the Dark Powers and willing to sacrifice anyone in her way as she is.
Still salty over being called upon your BS, I see…
Heck, you already are backpeddaling and acting condescending yourself with Carma, and we the people that DO know how to read already figured out why, dude.
Funny, I haven´t. certainly not when it´s actually put in a coherent manner, using respectable language.
Now, you and your siamese very obvious tries at trolling on the other hand… I mean, dude. You are still playing the naive card after what, the 4th or 5th repetition of Carma regarding Baine? Worse of all when ALL of us saw you mocking Vol´jin for doing much more than Baine?
Hlarious
Promoting a toxic environment is no laughing matter… it´s basic lack of respect for the other human beings trying to discuss in this topic.
And so does Baine, which is why he doesn’t want Sylvanas sending them all to die and raising their corpses.
We’re clearly on the same side of the argument here.
Silliness aside, Baine very much cares about the ideal of the Horde that Thrall set as a foundation, and that ideal does not include attempted genocide done out of fear of what may happen in the future, nor war for the sake of conquest itself.
He is not treating with the enemy because he doesn’t see Anduin/the Alliance as an enemy, but people forced to defend themselves against the Horde’s aggression. He wants to reign in that aggression and show these people that it isn’t what the Horde is all about so both sides can benefit.
