Should WoW abandon no effort players?

[anon48588657]

Change gear to progress for the content its acquired in by specific affixs.

Raid/ M+ have bonuses to the raid/dungeon they are looted in. Similar to the benthic bonuses for damage in EP.

World quest gear has gold find, movement speed and resource/health replenishment for mob grinding.

PVP has player damage and stun reduction affixs or something of that general idea.

Now standard gear stats progression is open to everyone but they are better at the content they run often. When the Ilvl goes up the affix percentage also increases slightly.

Nobody gets stat gimped but everyone excels at their prefferred content over others that do not engage that type of playstyle.

Add vendors… RnG is way out of hand.

[Sylvanás-windrunner]

I’ve been off social media for 2 years.

I only see blizzards crap writing now

[Jalanilí-moon-guard-4790 (Jalanilí)]

Can I copy this?

Feel free!

[Elradrierion-rexxar]

Can I cite you also, cause people just turned all stupid once I posted it lol

[Yuliah-daggerspine]

Pathfinder isn’t saying you’ve finished the content.

Sorry friend but YOUR lame assertion is that FLIGHT lets players SKIP content.
NO…SORRY but because of PATHFINDER it DOES NOT.
i dont care if you cant accept that fact. Fact it remains.

[Fluffergyrl-dalaran (Fluffergyrl)]

Yep, I agree. Somewhere along the way the meaning changed, casual only means you don’t play as often as others.

I’ll agree that casual doesn’t have to be fall asleep easy, with two caveats:

• grouping should never be required, it should allow better rewards, but thier should always be a soloable base (queuable counts) to advance the story
• time spent absolutely equals effort. I should be able to earn the same reward by doing the base action say 10 times as someone who groups up for it. If the stars align and I can group up, go for me, otherwise I should be able to reach the same goal, only more slowly.

[Rynhelm-myzrael]

The shorter answer is yes.

The longer answer is that rewards need to feel earned. WoW has been about grinding since level 1 in vanilla - you’re literally asked to kill the same mobs repeatedly for your first quests.

The difference between the “glory days” and what I’ve seen in the last few expansions is that there’s little tension or fear of failing until you start higher difficulty endgame content, and without risks of failure any victories - as well as their rewards - feel hollow. And while that endgame content may finally provide some satisfaction, the road there is trivial and mind-numbingly easy.

There could be any number of approaches to improve that sense of accomplishment, and I think they need to meet a few criteria:

• WoW’s leveling and questing experience, including endgame WQs and dailies, needs to be more difficult. Not impossibly difficult - I don’t think anyone is asking for Dark Souls degrees of masochism - but something approaching the “I could die if I make a couple mistakes” level that we had in Classic

• Gear attributes shouldn’t be random for gear that people will work toward. If it’s an endgame item, we need to know what we’re aiming for to be motivated to work toward it. Whether it’s an item gained by item turn-ins (think TBC badges) or boss drops, it’s easier to get excited and feel accomplishment by reaching your goal. Randomizing values on gear we worked so hard toward just leads to disappointment rather than an exciting payoff once we complete that goal

• Group PvE content (e.g. dungeons) should be challenging even at the first difficulty level. If deaths are rare, then the group doesn’t get a chance to bond when overcoming a challenge

• Players need more control and a sense of purpose to character progression. Talent trees appeal to people even when many talents are “boring” such as “increase chance to hit by 1%” because it feels like they at least earned a decision to improve their character every new level. And visually they can see how far they’ve come and how much closer they’re getting to a cool talent just down the tree. Trees, in a way, create both a portrait of their character’s abilities and a story of their progression. The design doesn’t need to be trees, either - the weapon artifact layouts, FF12’s Zodiac Age grid, and POE’s node structure all provide the same sort of psychological benefit.

TLDR, Blizzard needs to bring back a sense of progression and accomplishment to all facets of WoW - not just M+ dungeons and raids - by reintroducing challenging gameplay and clear goals that reward player skill and decision making.

[Jalanilí-moon-guard-4790 (Jalanilí)]

I don’t understand why it always has to be one or the other with some players, you’re either with the casual crowd or the angry elitist crowd. There’s nothing in between apparently.

Honestly, I don’t think that the “casuals” have anything against the “hardcore” people, and the vast majority of the players in the game fall somewhere in between - they like the stuff they like and they just want to keep doing that stuff.

The only time casuals get testy is when they start sneeringly getting told ‘git gud’ when people complaining get the stuff that they like taken away from them, like having primary storyline dungeons be Mythic-only and people calling for the removal of LFR. Casuals are generally 100% fine with co-existing with M+ clockpushers and extremely challenging raids as long as there’s an easier version that they can do with rewards that aren’t quite as shiny.

Players who imagine themselves to be ‘hardcore’ have a tendency to loudly resent casual players for even existing, though, because they think that there will come a point where there isn’t difficult content anymore for some reason, and also they don’t want them to be able to have any kind of rewards. But weirdly, it doesn’t seem like it’s actually top-tier players doing top-tier content who are doing the complaining, they have other stuff to do. It’s usually the bootstrappy armchair-Hardcore who are more invested in the principle than actually doing bleeding-edge content.

Everyone else is just puttering along, doing their own thing.

[Yuliah-daggerspine]

They both get something out of it so unless someones just being a turd working together is the path of least resistance.

Frankly with some people in this very thread, theres no way I personally want anything to do with them in-game beyond ‘least resistance’.
Stop pretending as if this is about youre being desperate to have us come join you in the game. We BOTH know its not. If it were you’d instead be in here ASKING us to do just that instead of being demeaning and insulting.

[Rotindots-zuljin]

Game is designed for no lifers…

Hope you were looking in the mirror when you posted that lol. Because you are the poster child of that comment.

[Yuliah-daggerspine]

Group PvE content (e.g. dungeons) should be challenging even at the first difficulty level. If deaths are rare, then the group doesn’t get a chance to bond when overcoming a challenge

Ok.but what if I dont WANT to bond with other gamers out there?
Why is this even an issue in here?
I play this game to RID myself of relationships with human beings for a while and theres TONS of solo content as well as NON COMMITTAL random content to run.
THAT is want many of US want and how WE want to keep it.
If I wanted a date or a new friend I sure wouldnt be looking for it in a video game…kwim ?

[Evanora-thrall]

• time spent absolutely equals effort.

This is incorrect.

If I have only 2 hours in my day to play WoW that does not mean the 2 hours I have are spent not trying to play to the best of my ability.

[Mcbeardsly-dalaran]

Here we go again, and I’m back to being lost. I left it at your last post because I figured that would be the constructive thing to do for both of us. Although if we keep going like this its pretty much inevitable you and I will end up together IRL. You’ve seen romcoms right? We’re so very close to falling in love.

[Blightfall-stormrage]

With all due respect you seem to have a bias of your own, based on your caricatures of players who enjoy more challenging gameplay.

[Yuliah-daggerspine]

Here we go again, and I’m back to being lost. I left it at your last post because I figured that would be the constructive thing to do for both of us. Although if we keep going like this its pretty much inevitable you and I will end up together IRL. You’ve seen romcoms right? We’re so very close to falling in love.

so you think that you should just say stuff and people shouldnt give their opinions then. why are you posting publicly if thats the case?

[Mcbeardsly-dalaran]

[Yuliah-daggerspine]

• time spent absolutely equals effort.

This is incorrect.

If I have only 2 hours in my day to play WoW that does not mean the 2 hours I have are spent not trying to play to the best of my ability.

uh…its a video game many of us play to relax and have fun with.
My ‘best of my ability’ is saved for REAL world jobs and my marriage and family.
Lets not put this GAME on too much of a pedestal here.

Im all for those with tons of time and energy getting more fromthe game but based on the thread title and topic I dont think some of the hardcore players here want dirty cascuals being able to play the stinking game AT ALL

[Jalanilí-moon-guard-4790 (Jalanilí)]

With all due respect you seem to have a bias of your own, based on your caricatures of players who enjoy more challenging gameplay.

But weirdly, it doesn’t seem like it’s actually top-tier players doing top-tier content who are doing the complaining, they have other stuff to do.

Mmmmmmmkay.

[Elradrierion-rexxar]

Well yeah, they were able to relaunch a 15 year old game and people were dumb enough to actually come back for it.

Of course it’s a success lol

[Yuliah-daggerspine]

“Hey, what type of player should we make content for?”

“Well, let’s see. On the one hand, we have people who drop in and want to spend a fairly minimal time in-game to get easy rewards. They mostly just like to burn time with collecting, pet battling, daily world quests and such, or automatically queued content. They’re pretty okay with casual grinds but don’t really like super hard content, and they’re generally not able to commit their schedules to high-end grouping. But they stay subscribed pretty faithfully and buy a lot of cosmetics from the store because they’re usually working full-time and have an income, if not a lot of time to dedicate. Our game has been out for fifteen years, so this is definitely the largest portion of our players as they’ve gotten older.”

“Okay, I hear you. What about the other subscribers?”

“Well, the other group goes hard. They burn through content fast and complain loudly for more when it’s not exactly what they wanted or there’s not enough of it. They want all rewards to be really, really hard to obtain and only gained through absolute mastery of the game.”

“Interesting. Why do they care?”

“Well, despite it not affecting them at all what rewards other people have, they only feel good about what they have if other people can’t have it, or anything like it. Or anything at all, basically.”

“I see. And how many of these subscribers do we have?”

“Really not very many, but they’re very, very loud, and difficult to please. And making their content is really time consuming and expensive, with the way that it has to be painstakingly balanced and on the bleeding edge of challenging without being impossible, but also new and unique compared to every other thing they’ve ever done. And then once they’re done with the content we put out they cancel their subscriptions until there is more new content.”

“And how much do they spend on things like boosts and mounts and–”

“I’m going to stop you right there, because the answer is nearly zero. They hate that stuff even though it doesn’t affect game balance. If anyone with a credit card can have it they resent it, and they resent you for making it.”

“So basically, let me sum up. The choice is between spending our time making content for the largest, steadiest part of our playerbase, with money, who generally like low-effort content that is inexpensive to develop…or spending our time making content for angry, disaffected, resentful people who imagine that they are the elite, hate the other people in the game, hate us, hate all the content we give them, and use it up fast and then drop their subscriptions?”

“Yes, basically.”

“Hmmm…this is a really hard choice…”

Well said !
EXACTLY whats going on in here.