Should Mathias Shaw be replaced?

Lore Story Forum
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The Argent Crusade knowing =/= SI:7 knowing. Plus, how much does the Argent Crusade knows about the Dreadlord’s capability to infiltrate and kidnap people? Enough to accurately anticipate and prevent any possibility of it?

…I don’t know about you, but I didn’t see any sign that Sylvanas hid enough Blight in the capital city ruins above ground to just blight everything. Only the regular amount of blight that is kept in that area. Nor did I see any Blight containers below ground set to detonate the last few times I did the scenario. So I remain skeptical.

If you track that the commander’s orders to give particular guards a night off come from another higher up, it probably wouldn’t make the difference you imagine it to make. Heck, with that in mind, I’d speculate that Shaw perhaps wanted to make sure the guards who needed to be off-duty were specifically off-duty. Sending it down the chain indirectly might result in the orders being garbled somewhat and getting lost in translation. Plus, it might’ve been just faster to tell them directly than to tell the boss of their boss to tell their boss to tell them that they got the night off. It wouldn’t have been a big deal with the Horde investigators were dealt with before this point, as was planned.

That’d be a fair mistake. But hardly anything worth forcing him to resign over and handing the job to a less experienced manager. In the grand scheme of thing, it’s positively minuscule.

Look, what this comes down to is whether the man is guilty of actual chronic incompetence or simply bad luck. For instance, I don’t think being kidnapped and replaced by an extraterrestrial shapeshifting demon that majored in political intrigue at Nathreza University qualifies as chronic incompetence. Nor being duped by a single counter-intelligence scheme, having your subordinates miss the hidden trap juryrigged on short notice, or even just appearing in person to get a few guards out of the way with no questions asked by them.

What should be considered is whether these “blunders” outweigh the man’s life of experience and service in the job. Which involves helping to deal with the Defias, keeping tabs on the Scourge, scouting out Nathanos’ location in the plaguelands, assigning agents to accompany Varian’s mission to (almost) assassinate Moira, and helping to deal with the Twilight Hammer cult’s forces personally on several occasions. Hell, he found out the Legion’s trap and almost warned the fleets, at which point the Legion had to directly intervene to stop him.

All this tallied up against, what four bugbears on his record that are of questionable import? Seems like a stunning record to me, and making him resign without seeing if he can improve upon himself after these setbacks would be tossing out the baby along with the bathwater. Because you’ll be down one veteran spymaster until you get one with the chops to replace him.

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The whole SI:7 should be replaced they fail more than goblin tech.

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23

I didn’t say that was the case. Just evidences Dreadlord ability’s being documented. And as Stormwind, and seemingly defacto Alliance intelligence, either something he knows or should know.

That they can possess people. And that the Scarlet Crusade was puppeted in such a manner.

Anticipate? Sure. Prevent any possibility? Not necessarily, but they could still put safeguards, sure.

Last I recall, there were extra bombs and barrels visible below ground. And Goblins who say ‘go away’ or something when you ask.

I disagree. I just don’t think that ‘Mathias Shaw gave us the night off’ versus ‘commander gave us the night off’ carry the same connotations at all.

Sometimes you have to trust delegation to subordinates. Or, as I said, use a disguise. Ultimately I think there are several ways of approaching this in a better manner than how he did it.

By itself? Sure. As I said, these things are cumulative.

I don’t quite view it that way. His job is important enough that the utmost reliability is necessary to place trust in him. The fate of nations hangs in the balance. I’m not denying good performance at times. But the price of failure is much higher.

Let me ask you, how many more times must he fail before he should go? How many more learning experiences can be afforded?

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Last time Shaw got replaced, his replacement got a ton of stuff done! His temporary replacement even used spycraft to kill the Horde Warchief!

Shaw hasn’t don’t anything useful compared to that.

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25

Different areas of expertise. SI:7 usually deals with the Horde, Defias, Dark Irons, etc. Burning Legion and all that entails is an outside context problem, and even we get surprised by them repeatedly.

Which was not the tricked employed here.

How about in the context of Mathias being captured as he was out in the field? Like, the only thing that comes to mind is having regular code phrases to spot impostors. But doing that in the event of a shapeshifter kidnapping your boss and taking their place kinda seems a tad… paranoid, no?

Spies wouldn’t be able to get too close to that sort of setup, and even if they did, what assumption would there be that their purpose is to simply flood the entirety of the underground and aboveground?

Course not. Not if you consult the guards alone. But if you move up the chain and ask about it from said commander… what does he say? And if you nip the bud and he says he’s under orders not to say, that too is a hint that someone high up is giving a helping hand. Again, this wouldn’t be an issue if the possible investigators were taken care of early as Mathias had clearly intended.

A disguise depends on your guards being incompetent enough not to recognize someone pretending to be their superior officer.

Even cumulative, they’re not significant at all in the grand scheme.

His job being important for the future of nations is precisely why you can’t just replace him willy nilly, you got to have a suitable successor lined up who can perform to his level. Otherwise you risk handing the job over to someone too green to be up to the task. Letting your enemies dictate who you employ in this manner seems like generally poor policy.

He has yet to repeat any of the mistakes you mention so far. Give him enough learning experiences to determine whether or not he can and does learn from his failings and makes himself impervious to them in the future. At a bare minimum, wait until a mishap on the same scale as Teldrassil occurs before determining that he’s of no use.

Don’t be a Vader people. Be a Thrawn. Being overly punitive does not lend itself to a healthy and competent military if you just sack people for no other reason than them failing without considering their strengths.

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SI:7 has to deal with many threats. They knew this one was the Legion. Again, if he didn’t know, he should have. This is his job.

Just the equivalent of it. Pretending to be someone else.

Codes is one method one. I think devising magic for the purpose to be ideal.

Not when things like possession or illusionary magic is relatively known in the world. Plus, as I noted, that he should know more about his enemy.

I believe it is in easy sight of where you fight SI:7. And it seems reasonable to see ‘a bunch of bombs away underground, might be used to blow the place up.’

Any number of things. ‘Things have been quite. They’ve been doing a good job. I felt bad with so many casualties at Lordaeron, they need to be in good morale. Thought I assigned other replacements.’ Tons of alternatives that aren’t ‘I can’t say’.

I would phrase it that it requires your spymaster to be competent enough to fool random guards.

At bare minimum, wait until another genocide happens. I guess I hold people to a higher standard in these positions.

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Let’s change gears. How, exactly, would Shaw have nipped this one in the bud? Keeping in mind that, at the end of the reconnaissance and on his way to inform his superiors, he was on a beach waiting for extraction.

Presumably, keeping Mathias alive served the purpose of feeding Detheroc info to help his deception pass all warning checks.

“Relatively” known.

Or that they’d be supplied to the front of the battle. Such as when the Blight war deployed against the Alliance siege. Nothing too notable about just keeping some spare containers in what could pass for storage to last a more extended siege. And again, I doubt it was enough on its own to appear designed to the purpose of just covering the entirety of the Undercity in it.

And I imagine a fair amount of those would still have holes in them. Meanwhile, even an innocent “Superiors suggested I give them a break” could be compromising. Again, probably not as foolproof as you imply.

So when a couple random guards get fooled, it’s okie-kosher, but when your veteran spymaster gets duped like once (because only one thing here qualifies as Mathias being tricked), sack him?

Edit: I’m just saying, relying on a plan that requires your guards not realizing that their “superior” is an impostor is an odd choice. You’d think you’d try to establish measures to train them NOT to do that.

Don’t be snippy. At a bare minimum, wait until he makes a comparable mistake. That DOESN’T translate to “wait for another genocide.”

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Well, not getting caught in the first place. But also some routine order of magic testing to snuff out fakes.

Just sound like more excuses for failing at their jobs. But just going to agree to disagree.

Not foolproof, but easily of significant superiority than what was done.

Are you suggesting average guards should be held to the same standard as the kingdom’s exclusive spymaster?

I do think a proxy is better. But I suggested disguise if he absolutely wanted to go himself.

You said mishap on the scale of Teldrassil, so I figured you meant the results.

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Thrawn killed lots of his own men for failing him. He just gave more chances.

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Do you have any idea how unhelpful of a suggestion this is? This is like Captain Obvious level stuff. Like, Mathias didn’t PLAN to be kidnapped while waiting for evac.

And Detheroc would’ve been able to easily suspend that sort of check with logical arguments to the effect of “The Legion is invading, we can forego red tape routines.”

Just sounds like more reasonable conclusions one would have for stockpiles of weapons than “rage-quit pyrrhic tactic.”

What was done was serviceable at worst. Hell, I don’t think it even had any serious ramifications for Stormwind itself, so… -shrug-

No, I’m saying “I’m just saying, relying on a plan that requires your guards not realizing that their “superior” is an impostor is an odd choice. You’d think you’d try to establish measures to train them NOT to do that.”

Yes, because clearly I meant “Wait for an actual second Teldrassil and all those body counts to happen a second time.”

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His policy was killing the ones who could never learn. Not simply punishing them for failing in general.

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The premise is how he could have avoided the situation. I think not getting caught is a pretty reasonable point of failure. Unless you’re claiming Shaw 100% had no way to not get caught.

This would rely on the safeguard failing, which may or may not happen. But putting one in place is better than not bothering at all.

It was baby’s first espionage. Getting lucky doesn’t make something not a bad decision.

Ideally none of your guards are ever fooled. Practically, someone of Mathias’ skill should be able to fool an average guard.

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It really doesn’t matter who runs SI7. This isn’t the only game that the writers abide by Dark Helmet Philosophy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etWDnmp5trQ

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“Have you ever tried not being caught?” This idea is the definition of unhelpful suggestions. There’s absolutely zero advice to it. No constructive suggestions.

Here’s an idea how Mathias could’ve avoided being caught. Not going to the Broken Shore to get the intelligence that got him kidnapped. But that’s not ideal because it still results in Varian getting killed, doesn’t it?

Now can you provide alternatives within the scenario that include him getting out of there with the vital life-saving intelligence he went there to get in the first place?

This would rely on the safeguard being waived as unnecessary in the face of emergency mandating as little time be wasted as possible. Which would be a logical enough assessment at face value.

35

Ask a broad question, get a broad answer. I can’t give good advice to the specifics without knowing the actual specifics that led to his capture. I can’t say, ‘well, he shouldn’t have moved so fast in this area because it tripped a demon ward and that’s what did it’. Hence why I said, ‘unless you’re claiming Mathias 100% couldn’t have prevented his capture once he was there.’

If Mathias puts in a safeguard to guard against illusions and possibly demons, it would behoove him to include instructions to not waive it in emergency demon wars. As the other situation, I’m not arguing for a foolproof method. I’m arguing for doing anything for prevention is better than doing nothing for prevention. You’re making the argument that maybe it will fail, so it isn’t worth even trying at all.

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I like Matthias Shaw, but there are some glaring opsec problems with him, aren’t there?

Too bad he’s the only other interesting Human character we’ve had in a while, amidst princes, admirals, kings, and lightforged swinging dicks.

it’s nice to have an old-fashioned intel officer that doesn’t bother with such haughty stations for once.

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I mean, or we can always just, ya know, write him as competent for a change.

A lot of Alliance characters are written super incompetent to further the plot. We could mix it up a little.

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38

Anduin’s inconceivable super-competence despite the glaring issues with his decision making are sapping all the other human characters of theirs.

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39

With the sheer amount of not just military knowledge, but knowledge of the actual ages he’s surrounded with, you would think he would be able to see past his youth (cause he’s young by literally every bodies standards) and take some of it into account.

Between Jarod, Tyrande, Maiev, Velen, Alleria, Vareesa, Turalyon, Genn, Darius, Geblin, and The Council of the Three Hammers, taking the advice from anyone, if not two of them into consideration at any given time should do WONDERS for his decision making and tactical awareness.

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They could do a lot to treat Anduin as if he’s still learning how to be king by making a few mistakes or even influenced by those around him, but no.