If there is a crowed of undead players who want Calia to represent them as tortured souls, then good on them, they may have that. It’s a good idea to establish some concrete characters who enact whatever your motivations are as a character, since wow in general doesn’t allow much freedom of choice in the actions you take (bfa did make the attempt which was appreciated).
The forsaken need someone who is scummy enough to make us do stuff like poison the enemy water supply because that’s what I want to do! I’d prefer it be Sylvanus because she’s been with the entire way. As I typed that, I feel like it’s too late for that, even if there is a redemption for her she isn’t going back to being a cunning jerk like I’d like her to be.
But that’s what I mean, one cannot speak for the whole faction. I don’t want Calia. She has to earn my respect, and if she does, it wouldn’t be as a member of the forsaken.
I mean personally it stopped being a question for me in about 2005 when the leader of humanity’s primary organized religion told me that killing Forsaken was a mercy to save their souls, or when that guy asked me to kill his brother cause he didn’t know Forsaken had free will and thought they were just the same as the Scourge.
Imagine they also turned into mindless monsters that ate the rest of your family in an apocalyptic societal collapse before regaining their sapience. That’s important for the metaphor.
Look at how a significant chunk of humanity handled the AIDS crisis and then try tell me they’d welcome literal zombies that killed people with open arms.
Your view of people’s humanity towards those less fortunate, or simply different, is optimistic, but tragically a little too optimistic. Bordering on naive, frankly.
You have a far kinder interpretation of Humanity then I. Especially when the very disfiguring disease not only alters a persons psychological state, but also constantly reinforces the horrific trauma that created them. On top of the fact that many people had already moved on from the loss of their family by the gathering; to (as Turalyon initially thought with Faol) see a perverse, twisted imitation.
Human beings aren’t good or evil. They are neutral, complex, and often selfish. Which is why those that amicably realized they have little in common with their living family members are probably the most noble. Those who genuinely reconnected (those Undead, lucky enough to not only have living family and friends left, but also those that wouldn’t reject them … especially right after the Scourge) … were an absurd rarity. But that luck isn’t likely shared by a majority of Sentient Undead I’d wager, and that doesn’t even get into those with particularly bad luck like Voss had. Or … those who have no-one left to try to even reconnect with still standing. Which … was originally what the Forsaken identity was created to deal with/address; before Sylvie herself twisted that identity into something ugly for personal gain.
I used the term because of a post I liked that was explaining that there are two view points of the Forsaken player base, but I probably took that in a different direction than he intended. I mean that, yes, I like to do horrid stuff because that’s been the theme of my race in vanilla/classic. I’d rather not be the “human with a skin condition”
Further validation. Empatheticly I would think you could find an enjoyment, or stimulation from seeing Calia become the new Forsaken figurehead. It seems to be something that you would find cool, fitting, and funny.
lol this will be meaningful the moment that the Church of the Holy Light actually becomes a meaningful entity in the lore at all.
My point is that people perceive things differently depending on whether or not it happens to someone close to them. Someone who had no Forsaken/Undead relatives or loved ones would probably be far more inclined to say “kill 'em all and let the Light sort them out” but people who DO, upon learning that their loved ones are still around and they might have a chance at reconnecting, will be far more inclined to take the chance. Even if they initially fall into the “kill 'em all” camp, when they learn that their daughter is undead and looking for them the most human thing for them to do would be to immediately switch tack to “well not all undead are bad I guess.”
Because that’s what people do when they or their loved ones are personally affected by something that they initially thought “only happened to other people.” And in doing so, that’s how community perception changes. You brought up AIDS before, but you can’t talk about that pandemic without also understanding how everything changed when people who weren’t already on societies fringes started to become affected by it, which led to a far more commonplace acceptance of it, sympathy, and a unified pursuit of a cure.
Sylvanas’ goals with the Forsaken were to keep the Forsaken on that kind of fringe, both by filling their heads with “the living will never accept you” and by antagonizing humanity in Lordaeron in an attempt to create a self-fulfilling prophecy. But she failed, because peoples love for one another was stronger than all the cosmic schemes she could conjure.
All that Faol had to do to get Turalyon to understand was tell Turalyon that he is his old teacher. And frankly, that’s extremely believable to me. The fear and anger that Turalyon felt was immediately dissipated by the joy and love he felt when he realized that someone he loved and thought was gone forever was in fact not. Turalyon broke into tears from the emotion of it.
It’s those kinds of personal connections that make up larger scale relationships between communities and even nations.
It makes me wonder why so many of the same people with anti-sylvanas sentiments post on pro-Sylvsnas threads and hijack them and then turn them into 10 threads about the same gripes. Sounds like griefing to me. Why can’t people who dislike Sylvanas stay on thier own threads? There has been a lot of people either bullied out of talking about her alltogether or the threads die because they turn into griefing threads.
Midly related, they say 30% of people are sociopaths. Clearly whoever did that study spent a lot of time in public forums.
You’re right when has the primary organized religion of a society ever influenced or been reflective of the values of that society. How foolish of me. Definitely just a one-off with no narrative implications at all.
Eww, are you trying to gate keep the thread? That’s so gross.
If you think they should exist in their own echo chamber they shouldn’t post in the forums at all, and they damn sure should be asking for empathy in the vain of themselves, as if they have the ability to empathize with other people.
To quote someone from the thread.
I want to reply to OP’s initial question by just saying that people’s obsession with dividing everyone and everything along faction lines, even literal real life people, is literally poisoning their brains and the WoW fanbase is absolutely full of crazies.
Also, I don’t think you know what griefing is very well. I had assumed as much, but even had to clarify. I wouldn’t call people that, especially if I were you and didn’t know the word.
Why can’t people who dislike Sylvanas stay on thier own threads?
Valdezi have you ever considered that you may be a griefer?
Im not trying to gatekeep but it feels like any time we want to talk about Sylvanas in this forum, it’s always turned into a fight and the anti voices are louder. If we can’t just enjoy this character or have God forbid “hope” for this character… who’s doing the griefing here?
Your very poor attempts to deflect from that fact that humans as far back as Vanilla were very openly anti-Forsaken has been noted. The fleshing out of the Church of the Light or lack thereof could not be less relevant.
It’s funny how people are so entrenched in their headcanons that they actually want to erase what little good and nuanced writing Warcraft has had and pretend it never existed.
Dude, Faol is an exception, not a rule. Very clearly he had to be willing to put himself on death’s door AND use his still deep Light connection to convince a young man he was once very close to not to run him through instantly. And he would not have even had had that chance had there not been intermediaries present to prevent Turalyon from instantly attacking the Undead who just wandered into the room.
I can be empathetic to a person who has high hopes for her as a character, although I have yet to meet someone like you have who does and I believe that person should have a devoted interest in the undead. If she is going to be involved in the story then she will have to do whatever is expected of her, and if she does what I would want as a leader of the forsaken, then whoever her fans are are going to be thrown for a loop and may be very disappointed.
It’s better to let her figurehead the priest of the undead because those certainly do exist. As for a leader, again, Lillian Voss, but I would say she fits the rogue side of the forsaken better than leader.
I mean … that is one of his primary motivations to reclaiming Lordaeron. To wash away one of the greatest failures and mistakes of Humanity. To reclaim the Holy-Land, and hide away the shame to reassert their Pride. Its funny how the Undead themselves would be considered an exception to that “washing away of the stain” … even though clearly they are unliving embodiments of it.
Literally, you’re asking for the thread to hVe a gate, and that opinions be shut down lol. You’re literally doing that…
Sylvanas doesn’t deserve to return, I mean it shouldn’t even be a question that she gets redemption or anything. There was no due paid for anything anyone else lost to her, not even nameless NPCs as someone pointed out. If you want an echo chamber this isn’t the place, I’m sorry.
I’m not a griefer, you were the one claiming Jerg deserves empathy. Sorry he’s losing one of his favorite characters, but hey, atleast he’s going to enjoy Calia for awhile!