Shadows Rising: Maiev, Tyrande, and Sira

If it would just be the case … instead we have the retarded-seal-clap.

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I honestly just see this as character development from Maiev.

She saw that the path she took was not right and don’t want Tyrande doing the same. She is still the sane maiev that can weaponize vengeance, she is just not dumb anymore.


I don’t think she was ever dumb… I just think Richard Knaack is dumb.


She did dumb things in WC 3. I guess hot headed is the better term here

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Here are some observations Nathanos made of Sira throughout the book:

    Even under her hood and through the narrow slits in her helmet, Nathanos detected a flicker of resentment. Sira Moonwarden never enjoyed taking his barked orders. She never enjoyed anything, as far as he noticed. Sira did little but balk and glare at him, her willingness to follow orders contingent on a high enough body count to keep her satisfied. She raged, at everything, at him, at her goddess, Elune, at a world that had left her in isolating darkness. He knew the feeling, but had chosen to embrace it and grow stronger. What she had grown in, he could not say. But from what he had observed, she had her anger, and nothing else. He often found himself wondering if she was truly loyal to Sylvanas, or if her loyalty was simply to killing itself, and its way of distracting the mind, granting a heady if fleeting catharsis.

    “I still say my talents are better used elsewhere.” Sira twisted and placed her forearms on the table, stacking them. “Like at Windrunner’s side, where the most killing is to be done. I have no taste for discretion, only carnage will satisfy now.”

    Nothing will ever satisfy, he thought, such was the nature of undeath, but he forced himself to smile. “Sira, you are greedy indeed if you consider the death of a god unsatisfying. Bwonsamdi is the last aching thorn in our queen’s side, and it is our job to pluck him out—he is powerful and irritatingly loyal to the Horde. We cannot know his plans, but we can assume he will use his knowledge of death against her. Against us. Was it equal to an errand boy then she would have sent as much. Our queen has determined you will serve her best here, and it is not our place to ponder such decisions.”

    “Are you questioning my judgment?” Sira growled, her red eyes burning with hotter fire.

    “No, you are here, and in being here you have not chosen an easy path but the right one. We must save this world from itself, and that might require us to swallow the bitter with the sweet. I know you crave death, Sira, but you must deliver it here.” Nathanos sat back, letting the map roll itself up and snap shut. “If this was not suited to your talents, Sylvanas would not have chosen you.”

    Sira blew out a long, tired breath. “I will try to consider this mission as the opportunity for mayhem that it is. Still…”

    Nathanos caught a sigh at the back of his throat—he needed Sira to accept her role in the Dark Lady’s plans. He needed her focused and committed.

    “Still, do you not think we should be at her side? Both the Alliance and the Horde hunt her, and if they should succeed in learning her whereabouts —”

    “They will not,” Nathanos interrupted sternly. “She will triumph over them both, and why?”

    Sira stared at him, silent, and yet she shifted forward ever so slightly. At least she was listening.

    “Because the Alliance leaders do not trust each other, they are fractured and in disarray. And the Horde? The Horde will prove even less competent. So many voices, each with their own agenda, their own secrets and needs? Impossible. They will accomplish nothing. No, we are most useful here, that is her determination and so we shall carry out her will.”

    After a moment, Sira gave him a wry smile. “Very well, Blightcaller. I am convinced.”

    “Good, see that you remain so. Bwonsamdi is a menace and knows too much. Once he is dead and the Dark Lady’s plans are in motion, there will be no more pain. We will be free of the cruelties of this world.” He paused and watched the dark warden gather her helmet, standing and preparing to go. “This is an honor, Sira. The queen has so few loyal servants remaining, we who still stand must not disappoint her.”

    “My goddess abandoned me; Sylvanas provides the succor of flesh and blood that will suffice,” she said, pausing at the door. The ship swayed, the timbers creaking softly beneath the crash of the waves. “For the moment.”

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Meh. A character statement is not sufficient to establish a lore altering retcon. Either Sira specifically did not have a choice, or she felt that her “choice” between coming back as an undead, or facing the maw wasn’t really much of a choice.
Considering characters like Cordana Felsong, it doesn’t surprise me that a small group of Night Elves decided to turn against their own. Just like the Desolate Council being half full of defectors- that was a disappointment, like Varimathras was a disappointment, but ultimately some people will always believe the grass could be greener somewhere else.



Looks extremely interesting and absolutely logical that maybe Sira just tried to earn enough trust to get near to take revenge. She is a Warden after all.
But of course she had her undead controll spell on herself that urges her to kill and kill and kill.
Hard to combine patient cunning plannings when you are basically a drug addict.

It was a retcon before, now the retcon retcons the retcon. Which is good.

People don’t remember the afterlife when they are raised though do they?

It depends- in Shadows rising Zekhan was aware that he was not going to a good place before Bwonsamdi pulled him out. Sylvnas has some fleeting recall of her experience. There’s no solid conclusion that can be drawn about what people know or remember about their death experiences.

To be fair, the the Shadowlands collector’s edition art book on a page showing a Mawsworn Kyrian has this passage:

    He would send those val’kyr to serve as her tethers to mortality. A pact needed to be made. Only then could she return beyond the veil. Only then will the Banshee Queen claim the crown of the false king.

So Signe and Brynja had been working for the Jailer all along and never had the interests of the Forsaken at heart.


Fair enough. I just think that if they did Forsaken would talk about their afterlife experiences a lot more and we would know more about the afterlife, you know? But it never comes up so I always assumed that people raised don’t remember what happened to them after dying.

Just because the Jailer sent them, doesn’t make that true… sure there is a picture of a mawsworn Kyrian, but that doesn’t mean that Signe and Brynja were Mawsworn Kyrian, or ultimately loyal to the Jailer.

I don’t see what that has to do with my post either. [EDIT: okay, I think I see what you’re saying- the Val’kyr might have lied about their methods if they were loyal to the jailer]

Aye. Furthermore, at Darkshore Signe and Brynja used dark purple infused chain that we now know are the signature of the Jailer, as we once again saw with the Forsworn that kidnapped Anduin.


Not only did you not speak to the my statement that you quoted about Maiev, but you have a history of confusing your personal wants and ideals of the Kaldorei with established lore and this statement is an example of just that. Sorry, but it’s true. A drunk, blood stained priestess of Elune? Really?

This is what it should be. They absolutely sound be presented this way. However, they are not always the savage predators. They call on that aspect of themselves when they need it. It’s always been there since WotA but it’s not their base instinct. They are a civilized nation that lives in balance with nature and will fight like hell to defend what’s theirs but they are not wild.

You’re right he’s dumb. But so was she.

Actually it’s both. Hot headed was going through the portal after Illidan, even though he was in surge world. Dumb was continuing to chase him even though A’dal told her he was fighting the Legion. And dumb was getting her people killed in Outland.


A bit controversial I guess. At darkshore post raising Sira seems quite calm and tells you that you will know in the future why she accepted the valkyries gift. So a retcon or she’s lying to Tyrande.


I don’t think I said drunk… I think I said “Wine on her breath”. Which was meant to elicit a sense of regalry, I suppose? The Bloodstained part is not too far off, since most Priestesses tend to be warriors.

I do not think I am confusing anything… I think what I am saying is I think my own preferences and ideals for the Kaldorei is better and truer to the race than what we ended up getting.

Can you really not tell the difference between a critique of the established lore, and objective statements about the established lore?

Isn’t that what I said above? What you claimed to be “confusion between the wants and ideals for the Kaldorei, and the established lore.” ?

Putting Wolfheart aside, I do not think she was.

Tyrande was the first person to try and persuade them back to the Night Elves, regardless of their forsaken status. Anything that “forsaken” (and i used that term VERY loosely) Night Elves do is on them.


This is actually true.
During Darkshore Tyrande plead Sira and the NEs to come back.

So that leaves me to wonder what the whole Calia + Forsaken NEs is about and why it has been put ingame.
In fact the Forsaken NEs could just walk back the the NEs and would be accepted, helped and cared for.
No reason for Calia to do anything …


Not consumed by rage? Yes.

Don’t forsake them? No.

I mean, you can argue that they have no reason to not forsake Sira for turning against the NIE, but it also doesn’t mean they accept undead NEs.

Unless I missed something when I listened to the book, she left Sira in the jail cell and walked away.