Shadowlands Ret Feedback

While I am not in the alpha/beta there are a few things that are very concerning about the way Retribution is shaping up. While I do not have access to the alpha to test these changes directly, on paper they are at the least worrying.

Lets start with the 800 pound gorilla in the room. Retribution Aura. As a passive it was barely tolerable, but as an active ability it highlights the fundamental flaws of the ability and forces negative choices on the player going against the very theme and flavor of paladins. Swap to the aura, or try and save someone. Thematically if you renamed this something like sacrificed souls it would fit as a dk or warlock ability perfectly.

Suggestion: Change it so that allies damaged within x yards increases the paladin(s) mastery by x% and causes shield of vengance to do x amount of increased damage. Simply put the harder us and our allies are hit the harder we hit back.

Shield of the Righteous: This will be the only defensive cd that any class or spec cannot use in mythic+ due to the gear swapping restrictions. Also it has the dubious honor of being the first ability that will not be allowed inside of that content because of the restriction. Granted paladins have a ton of defensives already, but being denied part of your toolkit is never fun, especially content where every trick counts.

Solution: Lift the restriction on weapon and shield slots.

The Lvl 45 Talent Row: Selfless Healer is going to be the default talent. Justicar’s Vengance remains a trap talent, and Healing Hands is just a dead pick for anyone who does arena. While having a shorter cd on Lay on Hands is nice, more sustained self/off healing is going to win out.

Solution: Justicar’s Vengance, have it do healing first=to a WoG, and then calculate the damage off effective healing done. Leaving the stun bonus as is. That leaves open counter play with mortal strikes etc, and removes the trap elements.
Healing Hands: Restore WoG’s BfA functionality.

With that being stated ret paladin’s are notorious for their inability to agree on anything. I think this is due to the many iterations that the spec has had over the years and what people fell in love with. As a Wrath baby this is my perspective.

Consecration: I like this ability, and have missed it since it was either gone, or buried behind more viable talent options. I am glad this has returned. I know ground AoE has its issues, but I would hope Blizzard doesn’t tune around it having 100% uptime, or at least shortens the cd on the ability some.

Seals: This is a hot button topic. I would happily settle for having them as a talent option that way people can opt in, or out of this play style. This felt iconic to me, and it sucked during Legion when we lost them.

Inquisition: The passive haste on this ability is nice, but its just a boring maintenance buff.

Divine Steed: Please put in a glyph that lets us use the old Speed of Light animation in place of this. FYI scribes would make bank on this.

Lvl 30 Talent Row: Move Repentance baseline, and make the talent so it is instant cast, and usable in combat with a reduced duration. Otherwise I see this as remaining a dead talent outside of specific scenarios.

Shield of Vengance: It is not respected as a defensive. One idea on how to make this respected is that it deals increased damage based on the duration remaining when it ends (regardless of how it ends). to the lowest health target in x yards.

These are just my thoughts on how alpha is shaping up. Not sure if the devs even read the class forums, but if someone would pass this feedback along I’d be very appreciative. Thank you.

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Some good suggestions and I could add a lot, but I feel like running in circles at this point.
Just one thing on Shield of Vengeance: during (I think it was) BfA alpha Ion stated that things like SoV are “degenerate” gameplay, because they force you to use an otherwise defensive ability as an offensive (if you min-max that is) and they wanted to get rid of such abilities…why on earth does it STILL exist? Just exchange it with 1min cd Divine Protection already.

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I’m in favor of some of these suggestions.

Retribution Aura reworked to increasing the paladins mastery by x% per nearby ally taking damage up to a maximum point could give us that extra oomph to our damage outside of wings.

As for trying to fix Divine Steed, I still think that the talent Cavalier needs to become baseline and added into the leveling path after already getting Divine Steed. Make a new talent to buff Divine Steed or change it in some other way.

Shield of Vengeance: A suggestion I have is to have the holy damage it inflicts when the bubble has expired is to have the damage be impacted by Mastery a bit. The more Mastery you get, the more Shield of Vengeance is going to hurt opponents.

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What makes me mad about ret when it comes to the devs is this absurd idea that class fantasy > functionality. Idgaf if it 1000% fits the class if it’s a trash ability (charger for example) it’s got to go period.

The fact that they didn’t immediately remove retribution aura just shows you they dont care about this spec. I mean that ability has to be the literal most idiotic addition I’ve ever seen in anything. I honestly dont even know what to say when I read half the additions to ret in SL. Just wow blizz…

I’ve seen soooooo many posters make FAR better ideas for ret than I’ve seen from blizz themselves by a large margin. Blizzard if your too idiotic to make necessary changes than just bring back abilities that you know actually worked and were fun? Aka bring laotl back u sumbiotches.

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Since it is holy damage it is 100% effected by our mastery.

I’ve been guilty of abusing it in certain phases on some bosses to squeeze out a little more uptime, the real issue is PvP where its not even a wet tissue. With Shattering Throw, etc. It gives an opponet pause before popping it or risk nuking their ally who happens to be low.

My critique is from a gameplay/fun aspect more than a numbers/balance one.

The tier 25 talents Fires of Justice and Empyrean Power need to be examined, specifically Fires. Empyrean Power seems like a super fun & awesome talent giving your crusader strike a 15% chance to give you a free powered-up divine storm. Now that’s fun proc to get.

But contrast this with Fires of Justice. It reduces the cd of Crusader Striker by 15% and once again your Crusader Strike has a 15% chance to proc something, except this time it just reduces the cost of your next holy spender by 1… cmon now, this is just a dull-as-dishwater talent. It doesn’t hold a candle to Empyrean Power. The two are way too similar in that they cause a proc to occur on Crusader Strike. Even if you tweak the numbers to be balanced in both, Empyrean is just such a cooler talent. Fires of justice needs to be completely reworked.

Overall I’m excited for Paladin, having a lot of fun leveling him. I hope they make Justicar’s vengeance more viable as I love that talent. It’s like an ultimate attack that synergizes with stun; fun to use… honestly makes me wish that I had a tauren paladin so I could have another stun at my disposal to use it more.

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Decent write up, agree with Retribution Aura especially. That thing just needs to straight up change. JV also needs some change too, either your suggestion or something else, as it sits rn it’s bad. You’re also pretty spot on on SoV too.

As for Consecration, I’ve never been a fan of it, at least not as a primary dps ability, would much rather we get something else instead of it. (I mostly PvP though)

Now for Shield of the Righteous, pretty much trash if you ask me. Give us Divine Protection back, you know an actual defensive. Ret seems like it’s in a pretty sorry and mediocre state in Shadowlands, I hope things change.

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Its another tool in the kit. Especially in bgs. Choke points to keep rogues from stealthing in, slap on a flag when you’re the soul defender at a base. PvE wise I’m already standing on top of the tank, but in high movement it does lose its value very quickly.

For me the ability has meant this is where I make my stand. The Light protect me. If you want this ground, take it from me.

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I can see it having use in PvE sure, but as far as stopping rogues from stealthing, sap has a pretty big range now and it would have to be an incredibly bad rogue to get hit by it lol. They could just sap you while being outside of the range of it. Even if you’re standing in it.

Even if they do somehow get knocked out by it, they have 3 seconds to still use their openers (Subterfuge talent if they’re running it), so it’s kinda moot in PvP tbh. Doesn’t stop them from vanishing either, since they have 3 seconds of vanish time where damage doesn’t break them out of stealth.

And if I understood others correctly (pls correct if wrong) Cons doesn’t even work as a anti-tap in PvP?!?

I think its only the first tick that prevents caps. However its more about the ninja cap. Sap is easily applied outside the range, but then they’ve announced them self. Also placed in doorways, or bridges. Very situational. A determined enough rogue can do some amazing stuff. Like I said another tool in the kit.

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By looking at both prot and ret paladin trees, prot’s tree is fine in pve, but for pvp the tree is a mess, soecially with hand of the protector and consecrated ground being on the same lvl bracket.

Ret’s tree is a jumbled up mess and needs rework.

I do not beleive holy/prot needs to go back to holy power mechanics, but I am willing to change my mind if there is a proc for prot’s for free WoG.

There is. Prot has access to Divine Purpose now.

I don’t think divine purpose would be a good talent to pair with WoG, specially since prot needs saraphim for extra boost in damage output. Pvp wise

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Every judgement reduces the holy power cost of your wog by 1.

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This, its totally useless rn. We need it to be instant cast.

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Right now FoJ just dominates the tier barring niche situations in PvE. In PvP Repentance doesn’t compete at all.

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It does not compete because it is a hard cast and can be interrupted. If it did not have a cast timer it might actually be used

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I agree in general except on Inquisition.

I don’t care if it’s a boring maintenance buff for damage and haste. It is very handy for consistent throughput and smoothing out (or at higher gear levels, making faster) the rotation. I’d much rather that than relying on RNGesus for Divine Purpose or putting all my eggs in one basket for Crusade like in Legion.

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The only problem I have with Inq is it competing with Divine Purpose. This won’t be the case in SL anymore so I will finally have a choice.

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