The person I replied to was talking about their pet getting cleaved to death.
Ya maybe good isnt the correct term im looking for.
They just arent as skilled at crafting a cohesive class feeling.
I was more just trying to highlight that the game used to revolve around your character and its place in the world. Now it seems more like a shallow husk for the players to experience game mechanics through.
I commend them for branching out and trying something new with melee survival. Its just in a weird spot and it wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world to revert back to something like Mop or WoD.
I’ll just say it now, if you actually played with a good hunter who knew how to cheetah properly you would understand how good it was.
In the hands of a bad hunter (most likely) it was a death sentence. Vanilla hunters were just all around bad news for the most part.
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You guys really not need to make this about Surv range/melee.
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Seriously. It’s getting a little absurd at this point.
Yes, Bepples made this thread. But it’s a great thread that is very useful.
It would be nice if all the MSV posters stop going out of their way to attack Bepples over MSV/RSV.
(However, I was VERY shocked to learn that MSV has a 50% damage penalty for using ranged weapons. Seriously?)
I’ve also been following the Shadowlands Alpha Hunter thread. Has it been linked in this thread? (I’ll check after I post.) If not, it’s probably a good idea to link that thread too.
So far, Dunes and the other alpha testers have been doing a great job!
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Okay, here’s the link to the alpha thread, ‘cuz it hasn’t been shared yet.
Why does MM will have precise shot in shadowlands? between aimed shot, rapid fire and buffed arcane shot, MM hunter doesn’t have a lot of gcd for anything else. Why can’t Blizzard just replace Precise shot with lock and load as baseline proc?
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I dont have the problem with this some do, i mean what is the real point of three specs that fill the exact same role in the exact same manner and only vary based on the button pressed?
I personally feel like Hunter should be split as follows:
BM, ranged with pet. Pet centric skills and shots for falvor as well as exotic beasts
MM, ranged NO pet, ever, not even an option, dps increase to compensate. Exotic ammos and other things for flavor.
SV, melee with pet. enhanced stings and traps for flavor.
Also that ALL stings and ALL traps should be available to all specs.
Other classes that suffer from the same problem, such as mages, at least have more unique flavor per spec. Rogues suffer from a similar problem as we do, i personally think Outlaw should have been a ranged spec.
Just my 2 cents
In short. Not all classes have to be the equivalent of hybrid-classes.
Besides, when you talk about player preferences, it’s not only about whether a spec is ranged or melee.
You say “the exact same manner”. Sure, all 3 specs were focusing on ranged playstyles, but they did so where each had it’s own unique thematic focus.
Both in terms of specific mechanical designs and interactions, as well as different aesthetics and visuals.
All those parts matter, not the just the base concept of whether a spec is focusing on ranged combat or melee-combat. How they do so, is important.
I want my pets as option, why should my hunters faithful companion all sudden run away from me when i pratice more with bow? Same can be said bout survival someone trained and deadly with bow all sudden forget how to use a bow and grab a stick to smack things to “survive”. Variety is nice but why does it have to forget things thats part of class fantasy.
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im scared. i really am. my own personal opinion about hunters and how they should be going into Shadowlands is this:
- Survival needs to be reverted to exactly how it was at the end of MOP at SOO. Survival hunter in soo in mop was probably the most finely tuned and flawlessly put together specs even at any point in this game.
- MM can be put back to how it was at any point during the end of mop even wod and parts of leion.
- BM has always been bm so to speak but i think if it will be in shadowlands like it was in wod it should be ok. right now it just feels so lackluster and off putting. i mean just knowing that your pet needs a delay to get to your target swap is kind of a dps killer due to the delay but most importantly not having any sort of focus builder just throws everything off for me.
i just hope that blizzard can get this right and take everyones feedback into account before they go live in shadowlands
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I’m not sure where you’re going with that as having separate play styles does not make something a hybrid. We still don’t have heals or tank abilities so, i don’t see that as relevant personally.
Changing the visuals doesn’t change that much in my view if i’m still standing in the same places doing basically the same things just making it look or sound different, its still the same basic thing.
It doesnt change the class fantasy at all pending how you define it . To me, MM is the archer spec, is the weapon master, not the pet master. The focus should not be on pets for all Hunter classes.
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As far as damage focused classes go, changing SV from a ranged spec to a melee spec is the equivalent of changing it to a different sub-role. Sure, it’s still a damage dealing spec, but in terms of the game and how it’s designed, there are clear differences between melee combat and ranged combat.
The term “hybrid” doesn’t just apply to classes that have options to tank/heal as well as dps. In fact, there are many ways to define what “hybrid” means.
Your view of classes and specs, as written in your reply further up, basically makes it sound as if you don’t want classes to have more than 1 ranged 1 melee focused spec, unless they also have access to specs that fill the role of a tank or healer.
What you said about Outlaw for Rogues highlights that view of yours so well.
Rogues in this game, and in the Warcraft-universe, are melee fighters. And there are many types of rogues out there in the world. 1 opportunistic spec that follows no rules(Outlaw) inspired by the harshness found in the life of pirates, 1 spec that focuses on bleeds and on enhancing poisons(Assa) and one spec that focuses on the art of stealth and surprise attacks(Sub).
Makes perfect sense from an RPG-standpoint.
It’s wasn’t just the visuals that changed between the specs. If you go back and actually look at what each spec focused on and how they did it, you will quickly realize how RSV was about dealing damage over time(DoTs), and about consistency. And it could easily have been designed to focus on that mechanical aspect even more so in the modern game.
Also, if you’re arguing that visuals and sounds don’t matter regarding design and identities, keep in mind that this is an RPG. Such things matters a great deal to many players.
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My pet is my tank for solo content. Until I can kill elites super quick, I’m using a pet in solo content. I shouldn’t have to go BM to do it. Good thing I can use a pet.
I would like to see lone wolf buffed though.
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By that definition almost everything then is a hybrid, not sure i can buy into that. For me the term hybrid represents those that can fill more than one role, where a role is dps, tank, or heals… and does not apply to different forms of dps.
And no i dont want them all to have one range one melee etc… i want there to be a reason and differentiation between them.
There are a few such scenarios:
Locks have 3 ranged dps specs, but they all have different flavors having a pet spec, a direct damage spec, and a dot spec.
Another differentiation might be different play style such as melee versus ranged.
Or perhaps finally a clear distinction between them, such as a mages frost, fire, arcane scenario that by and large require different stat weights or mechanisms.
Ours were all the same pre melee SV… Stand back, send it pet and pew pew.
And yes i feel Rogues have a similar problem although in their case you could argue some small differences such as poison versus not but they all appear from stealth and hit buttons. Your example cites more lore than actual gameplay in my opinion. If they had made outlaw ranged it would have made more sense to me personally.
I just want definition between them in some form. Whether that is in role, how it dps’s, how it plays, mechanics, stat weights… something.
This is EXACTLY what hunter used to have! You are either intentionally being obtuse/hypocritical or you don’t know what the hunter class was like before Legion.
You can’t have it both ways. If the base of the class is similar between all three specs then they are either the same or they aren’t. Yes, rogues all attack from stealth but then all Mages and Warlocks cast spells. You can’t sit there and say Warlocks and Mages have different flavors, even though Lock flavor is exactly what hunter was, and then say Rogues and Hunter (with RSV) flavor is/was to similar when there are differences between each specs playstyle.
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You’re ofc free to have your own opinion. Not saying different.
But the term hybrid has more meanings and it applies to more than just specific combat roles in the game. As an example, an Enhancement Shaman(the spec itself) is a hybrid, with a focus on spells and magic along with physical combat using melee-weapons.
So yeah, in that sense, hybrid can apply to a lot of things.
But again if we talk combat roles, even if you have two different specs that are both designed for you to deal damage, if one spec is designed for ranged combat while the other focuses on melee-combat then they are not the same.
A Frost Mage and a Fire Mage, in that sense, are the same. They both fill the role of a ranged fighter relying on magic and spellcasts. A Rogue and a Mage? Both deal damage, but they aren’t even remotely the same.
What Asher said there.
Hunters used to have 3 ranged specs.
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Beast Mastery was the pet focused spec that relied on empowerments and managing CDs.
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Marksmanship was the direct damage-based spec focusing on heavy-hitters and burst.
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Survival(ranged) was the DoT-spec, focusing on just that, damage over time and via that, consistency.
I’m afraid that here, this means nothing. It’s all about numbers that have very little to do with thematic design.
Which was also the case between MM and RSV.
Did you actually play a hunter back then?
By this definition, it applies to warlocks as well.
Heck, Mages barely have pets at all. They just “stand back and pew pew”.
Not really. It’s about in-game character archetypes and fantasies. And how those are realized as player options.
Anyway, I feel that based on what you’re saying, you don’t really know what the old Survival spec did.
But yeah…in all honesty, what the specs were like back then in WoD, it doesn’t really matter. And it didn’t going into Legion either.
Why? Because the new focus in terms of class and spec design, was going to be Spec Fantasy and Spec Identity.
They could’ve done the same thing to Survival as they did with every single other spec in the game at the time, if they felt that it was too similar to MM.
But they didn’t.
I can’t speak for what everyone else would want from RSV in the modern game, but I decided to put together a concept based on modern design but with the theme and the signature mechanics of the old RSV, based much on what I’ve seen that other players have asked for over the years.
Feel free to check it out for yourself. If you actually compare themes and mechanics, etc. can you honestly say that it would play the same as current MM does? (Link below)
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I think a lot of people have too much melancholy about ranged SV. If your comparing that to locks or rogues dot play style, we remember that very differently.
I remember it correctly, I’m not sure that you do. Black arrow (dot), Explosive shot, serpent sting (dot), arcane shot to refresh serpent sting, LnL procs off Black Arrow to get free Explosive shots, and multishot to spread serpent sting. Serpent sting and black arrow had to have 100% uptime to be effective. MoC, Direbeast/glaves and arcane/cobra in between. Yes, there were non-dot attacks but the spec was built around SS, spreading SS with mulitshot and refreshing with arcane, and BA staying on target with BA proc’ing LnL for free explosive shots. I may have missed something since it’s been 5 years but that is the basics. Everything survival did was based around BA and SS interacting with other abilities.
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