Shadowlands Havoc changes

I enjoy corruption in PVE not PVP. Anyways, no need for a pointless argument with someone online. We have difference of opinions. I’ve done mythic plus, raiding previously, and arena at a high level, just not rbg. So meh. Maybe I’ll hit 2400 in RBG, who knows.

I think you underestimate how much resources you gain from immolation aura.

Havoc will be completely fine in shadowlands. And if it sucks, blizzard will buff it because demon hunter has only ONE dps spec.

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Wanting more depth, choice, and overall abilities to play around with doesn’t mean Havoc isn’t fine now.

What’s going to happen in Shadowlands when every class is getting back 4-5+ abilities, has talents and abilities re-worked? DHs just will be sitting there the exact same as we have been for 2 expansions?

Yes, Havoc is in a good place now. So are a lot of other classes. Look at Mages and Rogues, two amazing classes at the moment with a ton of changes. Why can’t DHs expect the same? Currently, we have very little choice. We’re forced to take First Blood just to make a baseline ability good. We’re forced to take Demonic, an ability we should have. It would open up Nemesis and Momentum. We should have Furious Gaze as a passive.

There are a lot of things you’re not considering. When we lose our Azerite Traits, DH won’t feel as “good”. This is the time to re-work DHs and make them better. Give us more abilities, more options. Currently, we have none.

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i miss old fel barrage so much. actually missed the old momentum playstyle too a bit. more miss the old fel barrage that used to hit like a truck and just blast everything

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What you say is true. There are no optional playstyle builds with havoc in pve. We will see what changes come. Losing furious gaze will be pretty big for havoc since you only go crit/vers because you have so much haste gain from demonic and furious gaze.

Not exactly. It opens up the possibility of choosing something else AND keeping Immolation Aura. It’s a good change.

I’m not saying they should stop there, as I’ve stated many times before, I want more buttons to press and hope they still have more good changes coming our way. The more obvious path right now is to also make AT LEAST First Blood baseline too. I would also like for Demonic to be baked baseline, but First Blood comes as a priority. If we can have both, great.

They also need to revise everyone’s Azerite traits and decide what they are going to do with them. Ideally the traits that make for substantial changes in gameplay should be baked into everyone’s specs baseline (Eyes of Rage and Chaotic Transformation for us). It’s going to hurt giving up on Furious Gaze, but it’s more of a numbers thing.

It’s still early, very early. This is why Alpha is going to be there soon and we’ll be able to give our feedback, so give feedback.

Agreed. If any of you get into the alpha actually make constructive criticism instead of just logging in and trolling around and logging off.

I knew people who got into BFA alpha/beta and gave zero feedback… and look what happened.

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If you are not using demonic appetite why in god’s name would you like to have the azerite trait Eyes of Rage ?

bro the rng on demon blade isn’t even bad, also 80% of the time it’ll generate fury faster than demon’s bite because there is no gcd

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What? Havoc is literally the best dps for M+. It doesn’t have the best burst or up front dmg as some other dps but Havoc has great damage, single target or cleave, all the time. It has the best utility in the game. The only thing that comes close is shroud.

cough i wouldn’t mind having a slow with glavie toss and maybe getting bloodlet back along with old fel barrage and maybeeee chaos blades?

For those optimistically thinking that feedback during Alpha will see sweeping/wider changes, I’m pretty sure Enhancement was shouted from the rooftops during BfA alpha/beta as missing key components they they straight up removed from Legion. Nothing was changed, we hit the beginning of the expac with a gimmicky PvP build that was neutered and lacking the secondary stats to make the rotation flow nicely.

Flash forward to the end of the expac, all the promises of changes/updates netted nothing. Actually nothing. Enh in PvE isn’t bad now that secondary stat volumes are popping off, but in PvP it’s one of, if not the, objectively worst spec in the game.

If you feel bad that your class isn’t seeing major changes, just appreciate the fact that your class is already in a good place. You have a lot of utility, good single target, good cleave, survivability, etc. If you say “Ugh, we’ve been the same for 2 whole expansions”, it’s probably because it’s only been a class for 2 whole expansions, designed from the ground up to tackle the sort of content they are developing. Those classes seeing the most changes are the ones that aren’t up to snuff.

I was never a subscriber to change for the sake of change. If there’s ever a functional problem with DH, they’ll probably do more of an overhaul. At the moment though, I’m really not seeing it.

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Maybe you didn’t read the whole post? Did you also know Eyes of Rage is a nerfed version of an Artifact trait we used to have as baseline?

I highly doubt it. It was a toxic ability.

Demonic Appetite procs off of Chaos Strike, not Demon’s Bite…

We really shouldn’t. Demonic is already enough of a damage amp on its own. Furious Gaze has caused all sorts of scaling issues, and is also largely the reason haste went from being our best stat to mediocre. Furious Gaze can be fun, but it’s very far from needed, and really causes a whole host of problems (like RPPM proc effect scaling, and making it hilariously easy to hit the Meta GCD floor).

I agree. It seems extremely redundant to have Demonic amplify our Chaos Strike and Blade Dance damage, and this new version of Dark Slash do the exact same. They really should have just made Demonic and First Blood baseline, and filled in that row with other things that could add complexity to our rotation (like a stacking damage buff to Throw Glaive, so it gets integrated into our rotation occasionally).

That’s hardly true. Demonic and First Blood are essentially required, sure, but there are 3 distinct builds within that. Yes, Demonic Appetite is the dominant one in raids at the moment, but both Blind Fury and Demon Blades/Fel Blade are competitive enough to be used at all difficulty levels. Felblade and Demon Blades are used by a full 10% of the mythic DH logs, actually. Blind Fury has no mythic parses (though that’s not surprising, since it’s only barely different from Demonic Appetite, and the only real barrier to entry for the DA build is Eyes of Rage), but sees nearly 15% usage in heroic (Felblade and Demon Blades fall to only 7% there, though).

Plenty of options there. Yes, something like 90% of DHs in mythic use the DA build, but that’s true of nearly every spec. Mythic has a far greater demand for optimization, and there will always be a “best” build, even if it’s only by a percent or so.

Chaotic Transformation, sure, but I could do without Eyes of Rage, tbh. I feel like it should be baked into the Demonic Appetite talent instead, and the other two on that row balanced against that. Chasing souls (and avoiding moving when I don’t want to consume them) isn’t exactly a playstyle I relish.

It’s good for soloing and M+, even without DA, simply due to the volume of souls that spawn in those types of content.

Having been a huge advocate for MM changes and fixes during both the BfA and Legion alpha and beta, this is absolutely the truth. Blizzard has been really bad at listening to feedback during alpha the last couple expansions, and I see no reason to expect that to have changed.

I had to post two separate threads explaining with both great detail and mathematical proof why MM’s mastery only affecting consumers would eventually make Rapid Fire obsolete before they changed the mastery to the very generic “buffs everything” version and buffed Rapid Fire’s generation (though what we were asking for was for them to make Rapid Fire a focus consumer instead, and make it the big nuke of the rotation, akin to Chimera Shot in WoD).

We explained numerous times, also with math, how useless Piercing Shot was, and that it was in fact inferior to taking no talent at all on that row. It still took Blizzard until 8.1 before they made it ignore armor, fixing at least the worse-than-no-talent issue, but still leaving it far behind the other two options on that tier.

We also warned throughout the beta that the focus economy of the build would leave Serpent Sting and Murder of Crows far behind Master Marksman, and they still haven’t fixed that.

Hell, we had to holler for damn near a month before they gave MM any ability at all for Command Pet if they dismissed it for the Lone Wolf buff.

Ya, don’t get y’all’s hopes up that this is going to be a collaborative development effort. The alpha and beta forums are more to give players an illusion that they can have an impact than it is to actually gather feedback for development use.

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Bottom line is DHs don’t need much of anything, except Vengence changes…you were designed post prune, so every ability you have is meaningful and useful! The only change I would make is get rid of Mana Rift and give DHs a legit DPS cooldown for burst.

I mean, Havoc could certainly use a bit more complexity. The baseline rotation is ridiculously hollow, arguably even with the currently announced changes. The meme about Havoc’s simplicity isn’t entirely without merit.

I just some more buttons to press. Having Immolation Aura, First Blood and Demonic baseline would alleviate that a lot as it would open up more slots on the talent tree for more diversity and maybe complexity.

Out of the 3, First Blood and Demonic are passive, and you can’t really play without them. This has been true for the entirety of BfA.

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Hell, in my mind, it was true in Legion as well. I loathed the Demon Blades builds that dominated the first half of that expansion, especially the DB/CB build from Nighthold.

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I really don’t understand why people want to change the DH so much. It is the only class to be designed under the new way they wanted all characters to perform. The DH is in a great spot in Raiding, M+ and does decent in PvP. Just look at all the people crying for us to get nerfs…

Immo Aura baseline is huge tbh, it will open up some options. Not to mention the new Talent they added in Essence Break. It deals Chaos dmg and buffs the dmg of Chaos Strike and Blade Dance. So depending on the CD/Duration of that ability it will alter the rotation some. Maybe even pooling and having actual burst windows

All Demon Hunter specs are receiving the following abilities:

  • Immolation Aura now baseline.

  • Now share the Fury resource.

Havoc:

  • NEW Unending Hatred : Unending Hatred expands their Fury’s maximum capacity.

  • NEW Essence Break (Talent) : Essence Break deals Chaos damage and significantly increases the damage that both Chaos Strike and Blade Dance deal for a short duration.

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Thing is, of those, only Immo Aura baseline seems really meaningful. Unending Hatred very likely just maintains the existing 120 Fury cap, since Veng will likely have 100 as they do with Pain. We already use Fury, so that’s a Veng-only change. Essence Break, being a talent, is basically a straight replacement for Dark Slash, and so far appears to be identical except that it specifically affects Chaos Strike and Blade Dance, rather than only chaos damage in general.

It’s too early to say, really, though, because all we have are these rough sketches of the changes. Nothing in there seemed terribly impactful, though. We’ll see what the alpha holds when they release it later this week (assuming it isn’t under an NDA, which it might be, I believe their prior F&F alphas were).

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I just want fury of the illidari back, is that asking to much blizzard? :c