Shadowlands had the right concepts Initially

… AU Grom’s “redemption” and don’t get me started on how they screwed the pooch with Yrel and the Draenei.

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WoD would have been SOO MUCH better if blizz hadn’t cut a lot of the content from zones like Gorgrond. But otherwise, it is a enjoyable expansion. It’s one of the few I have little problems with.

But that’s me. :dracthyr_lulmao: :dracthyr_heart:

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WoD could have been a lot more than it was. I actually wrote up, many years ago (back in 2016) a forum post about how I would have done it. The thread is gone now, but I preserved it in a google doc.

I would have kept Gorgrond, but it would have been a Horde only zone until end-game. The Alliance wouldn’t have had a presence there.

I can expand on that if there’s interest. I’m planning on writing something similar for Shadowlands.

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I just found it funny people were complaining about orc fatigue at the time and I sat there like What about all the elf and human content we’re constantly subjected to?

I honestly think if people didn’t complain so much about the premise of the expansion, it wouldn’t have been gutted as it was content wise. But that’s just me :dracthyr_hehe:

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People complain about Orc fatigue but are asking for playable High Elves and Skinny Humans smh

Also I did like many things about WoD. The problem is setting the entire expansion in an Alternate Past Draenor was just a bad idea from the get-go. Makes it hard for players to care about the world, the characters, and anything that’s happening really. In that regard I’m quite happy we got the AU Mag’har as an AR : it’s good that AU Draenor has given us something as lasting as a playable race. At least WoD wasn’t all for nothing, retrospectively.

I’m perfectly fine with never mentioning the Shadowlands ever again however

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WoD will always be special to me because it’s the first expansion where they made things casual friendly and I was happy to be able to craft armor for slots that I needed them in. Even if the limit was only three. Plus LFR was super fun.

But you’re right about SL. The longer we go without mentioning it, the best for everyone. :dracthyr_hehe:

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I don’t even recall anyone complaining about orc fatigue, but I do remember that being the BS reason we never got a Shattrath raid…

Oh and what did we fight the very next patch anyway? More Orcs! But demonized!

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See, had I designed WoD it would have been a bit different. In summary:

  • WoD intro is a bit different than it is in live. Players are introduced to Grommash, Gul’dan and Kilrogg, but Blackhand, Ner’zhul and Kargath appear later. It’s 100% a defensive fight as it becomes obvious that the Alliance and Horde will be overwhelmed by the superior numbers of the Iron Horde.
  • Shadowmoon Valley would have been a defensive war for the Alliance, and they’d ultimately lose. Ner’zhul would make his first appearance at Karabor and Velen would die defending it. The Shadowmoon Orcs would take control of the region and force the Alliance out.
  • Frostfire Ridge would have been a fight against the Lightning’s Blade clan, not the Thunderlords. The Horde would win, but at great cost. Drek’thar and Ganar would both die trying to collapse the passage as it occurs in the main game.
  • Only a tiny bit of Gorgrond would be available at the start, the southern portion, focused on a fight with the Thunderlords. The Horde would meet Orgrim here and start the quest chain to convert him to their side.
  • Both factions would unite in Talador in the fight for Shattrath. Blackhand makes his first appearance here. Victory is claimed, but Maraad and Draka are both killed instead of Maraad and Orgrim. Shattrath would become the new capital for both factions.
  • Since Orgrim survived, he gets to tell the new coalition about the Iron Horde’s plans. The Shattered Hand is in the Spires of Arak, trying to wipe out the Arrakoa (no corrupted Arrakoa in my version of WoD). We start off as hated with the Arrakoa and are introduced to Kargath in this zone. As quests are done through the zone the Arrakoa become allies and there’s a huge fight between the coalition and the Arrakoa vs the Shattered Hand. We win, and the remains of the Shattered Hand and Kargath flee to Shadowmoon Valley.
  • Nagrand plays out somewhat differently. Orgrim informs us that Garrosh is attempting to bring the Ogres into the Iron Horde, and he’s in negotiations with Dentarg (major Ogre figure from Warcraft II). We go there and gain the allegiance of the Burning Blade by helping Lantresor take the clan for himself. They inform us that the negotiations could crumble at any second as neither side trusts each other. Mirroring a quest from Outland Nagrand, you attack both the Ogres and the Orcs and plant evidence to make both factions think the other did it. The negotiations fall apart, Dentarg is slain in a fit of rage by Garrosh, and then you bring all your might to bear on Garrosh and put him down. No mak’gora, just a straight up epic fight which results in his death.

By the time you’ve done all that, you’ve hit level 100, you’re ready for end-game.

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End game would play out differently as well.

  • 6.0 content would have two raids, Karabor and Highmaul. Yrel wants vengeance on the Shadowmoon Orcs for killing Velen and her sister. While Lantresor wants to eliminate the Ogres in Highmaul so that the coalition can’t be flanked when they push into Gorgrond. Yrel would defeat Ner’zhul and Kargath, but both would survive and flee into Tanaan. Lantresor would defeat the Ogres, taking Highmaul as a fortress for the Burning Blade.
  • 6.1 content would have us focus on Blackrock Foundry and taking down Blackhand. This is a story that focuses on Durotan, Orgrim and Yrel, as all of them have a good reason to want to put Blackhand down. After Blackhand is defeated, Orgrim takes over as leader of the Blackrock Clan and brings the survivors into the coalition (mirroring how he became the leader of the clan after slaying Blackhand prior to the events of Warcraft II)

Now this is where it splits even further:

  • 6.1.5 would introduce Farahlon as a timeless isle style zone. Grommash is losing allies fast, so he tries to bring new clans into the fold. The Bonechewer Clan and the Dragonmaw Clan, who are both living in Farahlon. The Dragonmaw ride savage Fey Dragons (thus giving the clan the name) and their strength could give the Iron Horde a force to rival the Arrakoa who control the skies. Leading this effort is Ner’zhul and Kargath, who have merged the remains of their clans into the Shattered Moon Clan. The coalition goes there, defeats the Bonechewers and the Dragonmaw, before ending the patch content in a massive battle against the Shattered Moon, killing Kargath and forcing Ner’zhul to flee again.
  • 6.2 is where Gul’dan comes into play. At this point Grommash is at the end of his rope. He’s lost most of the Iron Horde. His son is dead, Kargath and Blackhand are dead and Ner’zhul and his clan have been defeated again. Enter Gul’dan who offers him the same gift he spurned at the start. In my version of WoD he doesn’t refuse, he accepts and converts the remains of the Iron Horde into fel-tainted Orcs and Gul’dan summons the Legion. They launch an assault on Shattrath which is a new raid, only this time the Coalition loses, as they’re unprepared for the Fel Horde and the Legion forces. A’dal dies defending Shattrath and the coalition splinters. The Alliance retreat to Shadowmoon Valley and the Horde retreat to Frostfire Ridge, creating new capitals in the form of Karabor and Bladespire Citadel. Demon invasions pop-up all over Draenor just like they do in Legion with all the factions desperate for aid.
  • 6.3 plays out similar to how it does on live, only with two major changes. Since the remains of the Iron Horde were all demonized, there’s no Orc shipmaster to free and help build a shipyard. To that end Khadgar opens a portal in each capital, bringing in Grand Admiral Jes-Tereth and Dread Admiral Tattersail respectfully. A shipyard is constructed for both factions and Tanaan is invaded by sea as a frontal assault is out of the question. The events in the zone play out in a similar manner to how they do in live, but during the final battle in Hellfire, the Alliance/Horde takes down Grommash, Archimonde, Kilrogg and they defeat Gul’dan. No zapping by Archimonde to make us think Gul’dan is dead, instead Gul’dan is saved by Cordana Felsong and they escape through a portal, setting the scene for the events of Legion to start.
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Sounds awesome actually. I love your ideas :dracthyr_blob_dance_animated:

Thanks. Now I just need to flex my creative muscles for a Shadowlands version of that.

It’s going to be a lot harder.

As long as your version has Denathrius as the main villain, it’ll likely be better than what we got.

I’d still have the Jailer as the main villain, but I would have done things very differently with him. Denathrius wouldn’t be changed, because you can’t change perfection.

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Blizz should have kept the horror, dark theme shadowlands has been hinted at for years. What we got was a sad joke. They ruined alot and also cut a new, interesting threat off too (Thros, The Drust)
So yeah… I hope they retcon and pretend this expansion never happened or was a NZoth nightmare.

To be fair, the Drust were originally planned to be part of the expansion. Rumor has it that Korthia used assets from a Drust-themed raid that was cut.

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There were little pockets of drust in Ardenweald but I’m super disappointed that the loading screen guy from Alliance side of BFA got cut from the very next expansion that he spent all of BFA hyping up.

I’m still hoping the Jailer was just a smokescreen and the Primus is the real villain of the Shadowlands and he was the one responsible for the Lich King.

Even before we knew anything about the Shadowlands i was against it when the leaks/rumors were going on for the very reason many other people have stated. Going to the afterlife was a big mistake and that got me worried before we even had an official announcement. Too much was peeled back and it ruined so much of the game’s belief systems and the races who follow them.

Not only that, but the entire afterlife system just feels incredibly dull and boring. There’s no longer any mystery there and death no longer has the same feeling. Before Shadowlands I think a lot of people might have idea of what an afterlife would have looked like before for things like a Human Paladin, Tauren Shaman, Orc Warrior or a Night Elf Druid. We didn’t know everything but it being pretty vague was satisfying enough.

There’s still a lot of mystery behind the afterlife actually.

We only saw 5 of the realms that make up the Shadowlands. There are an infinite number of realms. Infinite! Which means it certainly is possible that there exists an afterlife that matches what the various religions believe that their afterlife should be.

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I think where the Shadowlands failed was in it’s failure to flesh out the afterlife, and also to capitalize on the immense potential of dead lore characters.

Blizzard seemed afraid to do more than bring up a handful of prominent names (Kael’thas, Uther, and Draka), when we should have seen far, far more than just them. Maldraxxus did pretty well here, giving us others like Mograine and Vashj, but characters like Zul’jin were just a hidden Easter Egg in Revendreth, and others that SHOULD have made an appearance never did (like Garithos).

Shadowlands should have taken the time to provide closure between the living and dead. We should have seen Lor’themar and Rommath confronting Kael’thas. We should have seen him and Alleria/Vereesa finding Anasterian who basically scolds all three of them for putting petty politics above their people as a whole. From that, we should have seen newfound resolve with such characters to either mend bridges, or decide it’s their life to live, and their path to walk, and they don’t need the old King’s approval.

We should’ve seen Jaina meeting her father, and Antonidas, and especially Arthas.

Arthas was just done WRONG.

Baine should’ve met his father. Thrall should have found Grom Hellscream, Durotan, and Ogrim as well. We had all these opportunities for characters to interact with the literal ghosts of their past and find new strength and growth for themselves in the process.

I especially feel like we should have met Lirath Windrunner at some point. This is to say NOTHING of the laundry list of Azerothian Queens we never had a chance to meet: Tiffin, Eimear, the mothers of Kael’thas and Arthas, etc…

The four Covenants also left MUCH to be desired as far as what types of Afterlives there are, and how they function. I remember early on into Shadowlands there had been a thread in these forums about designing an Afterlife and Covenant. I think the concept of an Egyptian/Greek mix afterlife dealing with souls that need healing, as well as those whom died too young (as children for example), would have been an amazing addition to add a strong counterpart to Revendreth and also make the Shadowlands seem a more compassionate place.

To summarize: For the plane of infinite afterlives, the Shadowlands lacked Soul.

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