The problem is that the community, now, has content creators like Preach. If Blizzard tried to release Rested XP as a new system in Modern WoW, someone like Preach would tell them it is bad because of how it actually works, and people would go NUTS.
The simple reality is that the player-base was happier when they were ignorant of how things work. Fatigue XP is literally in the game right now. You are literally punished if you level too much in WoW. And yet people happily ignore it, because it doesn’t actually matter. I will tell you this - if most content creators did not jump on the Covenant hate wagon, far more people would like the system.
It’s a psychological thing. It affects all people to one degree or another.
At the end of the day, people play video games for fun, to relax, and to pass the time. Sure, there’s competition and what-not too but if they didn’t enjoy it in some way they wouldn’t participate for long.
Having systems that feel punishing put people off because they’re trying to relax and they’re trying to get away from reality–where they constantly must concede and accept things they dislike.
As for myself? I take issue with overdesigned, convoluted systems. If you try and do too much with a single system it serves only to be a burden rather than something that should be fun.
As example, if the covenants were cosmetic and the soulbinds/ability progression were seperate (and obviously redesigned a bit to make that work) they’d have avoided the issue altogether for the majority of players.
As things are? They need to balance things better or find a middleground that will placate the majority.
It’s not overdramatizing it, like, I can understand from the perspective of competing for world first, but if you’re not world first then to most players you’re casual. Even if you’re ranked as the number 10 best guild in the world, you’re still casual if you’re not top 2 or 3 or didn’t compete in world first. That’s just how it is to a lot of people. They care only about the winner, and if you did not win then you did not win. You will be forgotten by a lot of players until next raid tier, then you see where you stand again. That’s how a lot of the world is, too. Most people don’t usually go “Oh I want this person, they’re second best.” They go “I want the best.” Same mentality, really. If you’re not the best then that’s all there is to it.
Ion confirmed some people care more about the players’ feelings than the others, yeah. It’s about the feelings, again, which pertains to fragility of players to be able to adapt. A lot of things in this world are out of your control, game RNG is one of them as well.
You can have 50 crits in a row one fight, then the next have 0 that entire fight.
I think it needs to go, but it’s just because I don’t like systems being put in the game that will go away next expansion. I did not like Artfiact stuff, I did not like Azerite stuff, and the same for this. I like that it does have upsides and downsides and customizability, but if it isn’t going to be around for more than just the expansion I think they need to scrap this idea of “just for the expansion” notion. I also think they should redesign all talent trees to make them all just enhance abilities we already have rather than giving new ones or if new, just make all of them utility stuff instead.
Like for Warlock for example, giving a talent that will allow you to cast gateway instantly is one; another would be letting you use it twice before the cd, and then (giving them baseline demonic circle and teleport) the third would let you throw your demonic circle anywhere in a 20 or 30 yard radius without having to be there to set it up beforehand. That would be the row you pick from.
The gateway talents were part of the same legendary in Legion, and it was cool. I think stuff like that should be the talent system, or just things like the Shaman where they have talents that augment their flametongue and frostbrand weapon stuff. That kinda thing is pretty neat.
It certainly beats what we’ve got assuming we got most of the abilities currently offered made baseline.
It’d be nice to not have to make a choice between mobility and a stun (which is something warriors must do.) Rather, it should be similar options. Two charges or a reduced CD on leap, both of which exist but are on seperate rows.
I digress though, we’re verging on getting off topic.
I think it’s less about “fragility” and more about the fun people expect to get from a game that they’re paying for.
I’d say it’s better to make a game that’s more fun for people that don’t relish at the suffering of others.
Most people that like the covenants being restrictive either enjoy other people suffering or want to force a particular way of playing on other people.
This post was talking about players vs Blizzard. Their choice, as the game’s designers, was one way and is the default. Also, because we agree with Blizzard’s original idea/design philosophy, that means ours would actually be the default because that’s what the creators/designers were trying to do at the start.
This one speaks out to about how people follow content creators. Preach is awesome and amazing, but he has such an influence on such a large community that whatever he says ends up having a lot of players with him regardless. He could say he supported hitler, I know he doesnt, just an example here, and I imagine at least 50% of his audience would end up being right there too, if he gave a sound reasoning, their reasoning goes out the window.
That’s how a lot of communities are. I do not know about you personally, but do you ever fact check your friends? I personally, don’t always do this myself. I take them at their word for a lot of things. If I absolutely know it to be wrong, I will tell them no, but if I do not then I take them at their word. Like for example if they were to say: 2+2 = 7, I would be like “no…that’s not the answer and you know it.” If they were talking about something I knew nothing about, though, I take them at their word. I trust them.
It’s about game integrity and less about wanting people to suffer. The game basically tells you “you can be anything you want” - if they wanted this to be the case, then why design a game with races, classes, specs, roles? They clearly don’t want you to be anything you want with anything else, like you cannot be a Warlock and a tank at the same time. Cannot be a healer Warlock, either.
I understand people wanna have fun with their 15 dollars, you can. I think it’s more akin to telling someone “here is 100 dollars, you can buy anything you want within the realm of -x- and -y-, but you can buy anything you want within that selection.” There is nothing wrong with that, but people want to go “but I want to be able to buy anything I want, not just within -x- and -y-, but within the whole scope of a-z.” And that is not how it should be. The condition of taking the money was between -x- and -y-, nothing more.
Based on what I’ve been reading and the arguments being made - I disagree.
The arguments for game integrity are highly opinionated based on personal arbitrary criteria that could all still be self-imposed in a flexible system.
When I know people that already self-impose restrictions in the live game today - arguments that force restrictions on others just end up coming off as very shallow and empty.
People don’t want to self-control, so they prefer to force everyone else into restrictions that don’t provide any tangible bonuses to the game. If you don’t value the benefit enough to self-impose restrictions, then those benefits aren’t that valuable to you.
I just gotta chime in here because you seem so proud of your bad argument. The self-control argument is so bad.
Do you think WoW would be better if you could input cheat-codes and get every piece of gear you wanted for free? Sure, there might be some people who imposed “self-control” and didn’t choose to get BIS, but most people would take BIS, putz around, and then quit the game because they’re bored of it. It would very tangibly make the game worse. Taking options from the player can be good because players have a desire to take the road of less resistance unless they’re rewarded in some way for their behavior.
Being proud of your argument is fine… but not when it’s really bad / ill-conceived.
Have you ever tried to not fly when you could fly? Have you ever walked when you could mount? People are not going to self impose this if the option is there. That’s how it is. Arguments could be made for all sides, and both could win in a debate because both sides could be right. One side advocates for freedom of choice at the cost of value, because if there is no downside, there is no actual value to be determined. Have you ever seen a spoiled kid acting like a brat? All the “I wants” and the parents just giving them the world and everything in it. The child does not know of the value of anything they have, only that they want it and got it. Anyone else who has lost it could tie value, but the child themselves will not know of it.
That’s one of the most obnoxious things to hear / be around anywhere.
Also, did you know how badly people could control themselves during Legion when AP grind was infinite? Players already know they cannot control themselves, as does Blizzard. You literally had people grinding for days without a break and had to go to the hospital because they haven’t ate anything, slept, drank, whatever the case. They were very bad about that infinite grind. That’s 100% a full time example of how good at self control players are.
+1. People cry about infinite grinding, people cry about gated grinding. Players can’t control themselves, but also complain why you treat them like the child they are.
These people need to take a good, long, hard look at their community. This community is full of childish, entitled people. Like, let’s take a step back and literally look at this thread. It’s begging for some change to change WoW into Burger King. This community cannot control themselves.
That arguement is on both sides, again, as we have seen so many examples of people not being able to control themselves it is not funny. Blizzard imposes things like time gating and such not just for the number but also to keep us from grinding ourselves into despair. Granted, we still despair and complain anyways because I want my candy right now, not 2 hours from now, but, it’s there for multiple reasons. Not just subscriber numbers.
That really isn’t flipping anything. Before you had a system that punishes you for playing too long. (Is there a source for this btw? Just curious.) The rested exp isn’t a reward for not playing. It’s a catch up mechanic to allow players with limited play time to be able to keep up with other players who could put in many more hours a day leveling.
Imagine a player who could only play on the weekend and their guildmates are several levels ahead due to being able to play more often. This players says ok, I got all of Saturday to catch up on some levels but then after a couple of hours the exp penalty kicks in. Who does it hurt more? The whole thing makes no sense when you think about it.
Community bias goes both ways. Many voices in favor of the current covenant system haven’t understood how it works. Sentenza was arguing that it’s better to have an ignorant community, which is an authoritarian position.
There’s a conflation happening here between declarative statements and normative arguments (this is how the game is and therefore how it should be). Blizzard has stated that they’re treating this alpha/beta phase collaboratively. Adopting an authorial position doesn’t hold up here.
I’m not understanding your definition of integrity here. Many of the game’s content loops are in the spirit of difficulty and competition: Raiding, M+, PvP. The current covenant system is against maintaining the integrity of these systems. Again, I think you and others here are smuggling in normative claims about what the game should be, based on your opinion.
The current covenant system will punish those who enjoy many of the game’s major gameplay loops. Does it affect people who care about roleplay, story, and narrative continuity? No, because you don’t require character power to reach one’s goals in those avenues.
Unfortunately, I do believe those who want to keep covenants closed off have an interest in punishing others. Opening the system up would have no effect on their gameplay. It only offends their thematic sensibilities.
Who can honestly say that having access to all of the covenant power structures (keeping the cosmetic side of things locked to one covenant for the folks with thematic interests) wouldn’t provide more gameplay, more options, and ultimately more fun?
Spoiled kids are a product of given stuff for free.
What people are asking for isn’t free. Not only are they paying for the game, but they’re also willing to work through each covenant and earn the benefits that each provides.
They’re just asking for the ability to switch freely. That’s far from a spoiled child.
It’s like having worked for and purchased 2 vehicles.
We don’t want to have to go back and get relicensed each time we want to drive a different car that we’ve already worked, paid, and been licensed for.
We don’t expect to get cars for free. We just want the freedom to use what we’ve earned by making choices and exercising player agency over the course of an expansion.
Then why don’t you just make the jump and extend it to swapping classes, races or factions whenever you want?? After all, that would give players the ultimate agency, wouldn’t it?? Maybe that sounds a little extreme but it’s the logical extension of your statement. Blizz HAS to draw the line somewhere or we might as well be playing LoL/Fortnite/OW. I just wish all the Covenant stuff would be balanced for all specs, so I get to pick the visual style I want without picking a "community inappropriate " one for my class/spec.
