Twisted Appendage doesn’t affect mechanics either?
It has an accumulating % chance to spawn a tentacle which channels Mind Flay, dealing single target damage to your current target. It’s not mechanically interactive.
I was under the impression it generates Insanity. If that’s not the case then I think that would be a good candidate. Although, it is specifically for single target value, and when I think of the strengths of Shadow, single target is not what comes to mind.
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Ah no, that’s my bad if that was unclear. Tentacles proc and deal single target damage, increased by Mastery %.
I like the idea of Shadow being potentially good at single target with crit/mastery or haste/mastery gear, and good at multidotting with crit/haste.
In any case though, I’d happily take Twist of Fate mastery too, though I could see potential Mastery-stacking abuse in PVP.
I’m not really a fan of Shadowy Apparitions, though when I think about why, it’s that I don’t like the clutter, and I don’t feel connected to undead-lady ghosts as a Night Elf. I preferred when they were clones of our character, though I would also accept a Glyph of Shadowy Wisps, to turn them all into night elf ghost-wisps (also reducing the clutter).
My feeling on voidform is a ‘trance’ in the tempo of maybe trance music? Obviously it’s not likely I’ll sell you on an opposing pov, however; shadow may have speed baked into it’s core design concepts with voidform- BUT it also has a smooth rhythm and simple repeating core rotation so it’s not as jarring/frantic/overwhelming as say a burst spec situation. Voidform has it’s way of easing you slowly into increasing haste- so it has this unique bait and hook effect. I have analogies about why I respect this so much; but wanted to offer at least a description of what it offers and why it’s so hard to replace elsewhere in the game. Furthermore; the design directly feeds the story of fighting insanity…when has a spec actually mirrored it’s story in gameplay? When has a spec’s gameplay made you FEEL anything? There is very good reason why I stick up for voidform and the horror’s brought upon it by borrowed power to make it witch hunted so aggressively…and sure…many players displaced by the redesign in legion…I’m sorry this left you behind; but I don’t want to see that cycle continue by ditching it. For me, a “Wrath Shadow” I felt it was a positive evolution. Basic dot maintenance is too old school/simple and I’m sorry but affliction offers similar alternatives to that old school concept and pacing. I think that’s why voidform was created and why…ultimately I think it needs to stay. (don’t hate me for saying that plz it’s just my personal opinion) I’ve played this game 12 years, I never came to the forums to fight for something…there’s no replacement or alternative at the end of the day.
Speaking of all that, it’s why I resist any gameplay where DP becomes part of our core VF rotation, it ruins the flow imo- a track skip on a dance song wrecking my mood lolz
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I would agree that Wrath felt good and I think the core reason was because our dots were actually impactful and had weight, in addition to mind blast still feeling chunky. This gave you this “flow” in that it was smooth and “zen” like and it was consistent.
Once Shadow Orbs became a thing in Cata, the “flow” was changed a bit into a more 1/2 constant flow and 1/2 bursty with Mind Spike and Mind Blast consume orbs to (A) up the burst and (B) to grant 15 sec window buff of increased Dot damage.
Then in MoP and WoD, the spec kept dots impactful but then also allowed you to “line up” a moment where you can do sudo burst damage on demand and the spec flowed in this constant set up and pay off gameplay (builder/spender) which felt very satisfying.
In Legion and BFA, Your dots damage is nil meaningless as they just been gutted except the mechanic portion of them, you no longer have any sudo burst windows as the spec is just very slow and then not as slow and getting faster but no real oomph on demand ebb and flow.
Thus I think is the core “feeling” of why the current spec iteration just seems hollow and unfun. Nothing about it is rewarding to pull off of except your little mini whack a mole game to see if you can get a “higher” score then last time in the form of stacks/duration but even then, the spec wants you to leave to get back in again in order to gain benefits like lingering insanity and Void Eruption. The entire spec is a contradiction in itself, it doesn’t know what direction it wants / needs to go.
I want a more rewarding playstyle where if its dot focused, then I apply dots and play keep away and weave in what I can in the windows I can OR allow me to set up a massive payoff in the form of a sudo burst. I want to be in control of what I do and have it matter, rather then have the spec force me to bend to its janky mechanics.
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I’m sorry but I will continue to think this was a huge mistake by blizzard during the homogenization period of the game and why they went a new direction.
That said…take a look at covenants…and the overall philosophy of returning to roots… of strength and weakness. Shadow/voidform version, is the poster child of what specs should be…imo.
We are a dot spec, burst? I’m sorry was a huge mistake
builder/spender? why was that slapped on top of a dot spec when affliction already offered it?
You’ll never sell me otherwise…I’m sorry; that’s my opinion- don’t care if it’s popular on the forums. maybe I’m old school? perhaps…I am entitled to my opinion. Hate on me all you want, I speak from experience and what I believe is the real truths. At the very least I ask for respect to speak my pov, even if some may not fully understand or agree.
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In vanilla, we 1 dot and Mind Blast was our “burst”. It wasn’t much burst but then again, all specs were basic then. However, what this displays is that Shadow was a mix between dot/burst.
Then in BC, we got another Dot with Vampiric Touch and another “burst” with Shadow Word: Death as it was usable all the time and was great to use on the move.
I will agree that in wrath with Devouring Plague, it was leaning more dot focused but then it was balanced back into the casting burst/dot spec in Cata.
If you compare to a Warlock as many do, they had 4 dots in vanilla as affliction & multiple channeling dots and their “casting burst” in the form of Shadow Bolt was only used once everything else was applied as they usually only used Shadowbolt or prefer to use it during nightfall procs.
What that means is Affliction would be seen as a more dot spec while Shadow is a mixture of both dot and quick cast chunky spells (mind blast & SW:D).
So regardless what you think, that really is the original focus of the spec and it has followed through that rough balance for the majority of the games life.
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Shadow never had big chunky cds when other specs did…do you really understand what happens to the damage pattern of specs with cds? Have you really thought deep about the fact a dot isn’t bursty even if you perceived it to be?
Dot specs are backloaded compared to cd oriented specs…period
Shadow has never been ‘instant statisfaction’ in it’s roots
If you need “instant” satisfaction, why are u invested in a dot spec at all?
Shadow is a longer pay off, I choose shadow knowing this about the spec.
I’m totally cool with longer pay offs…like …think about that
and tbh; I love it when I snipe the meter at the end…shadow always had that ‘BITE’ at the end…never see it coming. I love that. U want burst? go with something that offers that, shadow shouldn’t offer that.
BTW, in your pvp world- that’s how shadow wins…it rots the player before they realize they are screwed- and tbh finish them with Death before they start to realize they are in trouble. Not burst, sorry…that’s not shadow
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Correct. We had a mix between dot damage and short CD chunky damage in the form of Mind Blast and SW:D and mind spike as a constant no CD spammable chunky spell at the cost of stripping dots.
Edit:
Something to consider… Mind Blast always had a CD attached to it. Short CD but it was there. Compare Mind Blast with Warlocks Shadow Bolt and Mages Frost Bolt and you can see that those spells do less damage and have longer cast times but they can be spammable. Mind Blast having a fast cast time and a CD means in needs weight to it in order to make it worthwhile to cast. That means at least in Vanilla, it was the best thing we had to achieve a sudo “burst” moment/window. Once we got things like SW:D, Mind Spike and Devouring Plague, it made those “sudo” burst moments more powerful yet still kept away from a “raid” dmg CD while keeping it chunky with a short CD attached to it.
When you applied Devouring Plague on top of 2 other dots and then applied “insanity” mind flay from talents, that basically was a “bursty” dot damage window. You chunked things down.
Disagree. Dot specs (at least Shadow spec for the majority of its life) was never “backload” it was consistent. Consistent does not equate to back loaded. Only Curse of Agony would fit that description, but that is an outlier.
In vanilla, you can line up a tick of damage from SW:P and mind blast impact timing to do a satisfying sudo “burst”. This was expanded to work with Vampiric touch & Devouring Plague. Also, with instant cast Mind Blasts, Mind Spikes and SW:D with builds and talents over a few iterations did grant GREAT instant satisfaction in addition to dots being meaningful. This is a reason but the reason Shadow was strong in PvP for the majority of its life.
With any Void Form iteration, it does not have a “pay off” in the sense that you “line several things up” and BAM all of it comes together in a “pay off”. What it has is a constant hill that your climbing higher and higher until you fall off. That is not “payoff” that is a “relief” or “dreadful” feeling. NOT a payoff.
A “payoff” is something that you as the player can actively think about and plan ahead and set up 1 thing at a time knowing that its not a moment of “if” (as with the unknown Void Form ramp windows) but a moment of “when” then you can capitalize on all your “setup” moments with your “payoff” that brings everything together in a nice little package in the form of a “sudo” burst moment with the case of Pre Void Form Shadow.
With execute windows using SW:D sure. But with ramping Void Form? Nope. It just ends. You don’t spike up, you just end a little higher then you were a moment ago which was higher then a moment prior to that etc. It never “Spikes” it just ends.
I want “consistency” and from its inception, shadow delivered consistent dot damage and quick CD chunky damage that when lined up with dot ticks, acts like a “sudo” burst. Sudo meaning its more chunky then you normal do, but its not long CD chunky.
Nope. You will never win “normal” fights with just dots and wanding/meleeing. You need to mix in your “chunky” spells. The only time I won via dots alone is back in vanilla dueling my druid friends and needing to outlast them so I had to SW:P and then smack with my staff. Took forever, but it guaranteed a W.
Edit:
I think the core misunderstanding in our current conversation is centered around “Burst” and how you and I view “Burst”.
I am not talking about “Burst” in the sense that you need to wait minutes at a time and in current wow is “reset” upon the death of a raid boss etc. I am talking about lining up several points of damage that all converge and hit at the same time or roughly the same to result in a big “chunk” of damage being done in the same moment of time.
THAT is what shadow has always had access to (for the majority of its life).
THAT is something we don’t have now.
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This is false. Mind Blast was one of the hardest hitting single casts in the game. Shadow has always been a healthy mixture of rot and burst.
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Friendly reminder that a spec does not need to have explicit cooldowns to be capable of burst damage. Shadow currently has neither.
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I think its kind of amazing that a pet build that you have minimal control over for a non pet class is currently looking to be the best build right now.
They really do believe shadow is/was in a good spot. Amazingly ridiculous. They saw the complaints and thought “here take DP and shut up”
They do not believe Shadow is in a good spot. They do not know how to fix it, so they gave us a nostalgic spell to try to placate some. It clearly did not work.
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Then why has there been zero adjustment with it?
/10characters
So I guess there method right now is just toss their hands up in the air and say we give up. At least throw some crap at the wall and see if some stuff sticks.
Because right now nothing has even been attempted to fix it. You see these tweaks and sweeping changes with every other spec with issues. Literally nothing is being done. And its not like they are making great condiuits and legendaries either. They are the worst I have seen thus far.
That’s what it appears. Of course that’s not something we are willing to accept.
I certainly don’t hate you. You’ve clearly thought deeply about why you hold your opinions and communicate that in a way that I think makes it easy to respect you. As such, I see you as a positive force on the forums, despite our differing opinions. Dissent is essential for creating well-rounded views, and a different opinion should not mean hating or vilifying or dehumanizing anyone. That would be working at cross-purposes for my hope for constructive discussions in general. I don’t blame you for worrying about it though. It’s unfortunate that’s such a common response.
Nonetheless, I appreciate your attempts to bridge the gap anyway.
Cataclysm/MoP Shadow, when I realized that the rotation felt quite soothing, especially in raids, and even then there was a lot of nuance I could leverage to increase my damage.
I don’t want to see this either, which is why I advocated for both designs. I mained my priest consistently until the beginning of Legion. Have you ever had one of those nightmares where you meet your friend, or something that looks exactly like your friend, but somehow you just know it’s not them? I wouldn’t wish this happening to a main character you once connected with on anyone.
Yeah, I am in fact trying to level an affliction warlock right now, so I at least partially agree. Still feels like I’m missing something there too, though. I’m shifting ever more rapidly between that and the max-level mage I switched to maining after Legion in the hopes of quantum entangling them into a Shadow Priest of older design. In the affliction warlock my guesses about what I miss are, at least in part: 1) my healing off-spec 2) Mind Blast. (Maybe Shadowbolt fills this niche to some extent but I have to pick between that and Mind Flay/Drain Soul). 3) Warlock is also not as thematically compelling to me as Priest. I still much preferred my discount affliction warlock to my actual affliction warlock, strangely enough.
We are all entitled to our opinions and your feelings are valid. (This previous sentence is meant to be sincere, not dismissive or sarcastic). Here are mine: “By the Light, I sincerely hope not! <shudder>”
“That’s not music, that’s EDM!” -Eleanor Shellstrop
I was old even as a child. I grew up liking classical music, and it’s always been my strongly preferred genre. Even, smooth, relaxing tempo, but still plenty of complexity or nuance embedded within these less varying parameters. My wife loves EDM though, and I find what she calls “downbeat” to be tolerable, so maybe there’s hope for me yet. I have trouble with what she calls “upbeat” though-my anxiety is already high enough, thanks, I don’t need music to try to amp that up even more. You’ve given me a new mental trick to try out at least. I’ll try to think of Voidform or exiting Voidform (which is it, in your view?) as the “drop” and see if that helps.
Oof. I hate the idea of “Voidform” by Skrillex.
I keep having this re-occurring thought lately as covenants are being discussed (another hot debate in the community at large)…and what I find wildly interesting is similar under-pinned concerns. The covenant we like aesthetically (for me Kyrian) but has mechanics we just dislike or outright hate (like the Kyrian ability lol) it becomes a very similar issue and conflict. The big push by blizzard for strength and weakness as well, all these ‘hot topics’ seem to directly apply to the voidform vs previous versions of shadow or simply shadow vs other specs in the game.
Ultimately we pick what to play based on the ‘overall package’ of a class while leaning on a spec within that. But…it’s very guaranteed “The best pick” for us won’t meet every check box for us- the more I think about it; it’s almost impossible? Still pondering the parallels on covenants vs the shadow debates- but your comment there made me want to start and discuss some of that and how it all relates to how blizzard is designing the game in overall feel and design.
The only partial conclusion I have is the ultimate answer is covenants just like voidform shadow- is about easing painpoints and dislikes or feeling of weakness to a FAIR and reasonable acceptance level for what we “gained” in that choice to play it.