This game is pretty much the opposite of EJ’s wet dream more like EQ’s wet dream. EJ was all about efficiency and optimization and reliability of outcome the vast majority of this game no longer has deterministic damage. During Carapace prog I would swing from 40k to 100k based on if/when my tds procced. It’s pretty much the opposite of a game that ej would make it might be a gurgthock wet dream but it’s not an EJ one.
He’s only been game director for BFA, Tom Chilton was the director from BC to Legion. Prior to that he was one of many lead system designers, and much like GC (who was general discussions previous scapegoat for everything they didn’t like), was one of the few devs who had actually taken time to talk to us.
On the other hand, its systems over systems over systems with variables over variables over variables that you can all calculate to your heart’s content to make sure you maximise your “potential”.
Sounds like something the EJ forums would had liked since that game was just a math problem to them.
Doesn’t make the gearing complex, just tedious.
Every raid tier is three-or-four months long. Every PvP Season is three-or-four months long. You placing a Timer on yourself should not come at the cost of making meaningful choices.
Yea and look how that turned out.
That’s the thing with consequences, you have to work with what you’re given and make the best of it. Swapping Covenants is in Shadow Lands but its not stupid-easy to sate the people transfixed by Simulations rather than gameplay.
Yeah but the whole point was reliability of outcomes it why EH was prioritized as king over stacking avoidance. Also why ARP was a god stat since there was zero rng with the stat.
I def can see that, but according the Ion RNG makes things fun. And RNG means more calculations !
It did. And was part of the reason that it’s going away. Now players can actually craft proper BiS lists for players to go after.
It totally should when some end bosses of a raid are +300-500 wipes before kill encounters. It takes time for guilds to get there, then even longer to get them down.
And going back halfway isn’t the solution either. If they want to return RPG elements start with the core, not a borrowed power system that’ll be gone in the next expansion.
I’m only focusing on your last sentence.
This is a common misconception that “Borrowed power” is inherently bad, and that the ‘simple’ solution is to just not have borrowed power.
The problem though, is that we already went through that. You get homogenization and spell bloating because you’re just adding onto the base kit without taking anything away each expansion.
“So then don’t add anything to the kit, classes should be complete right off the bat!”
- How do you determine when a class is “complete”?
- How do you get people to agree to your assessment?
- If you think things are bad now, the sheer firestorm that would crop up from players not getting ANYTHING in the next expansion outside of simple numerical balance adjustments would completely dwarf anything we’re experiencing now.
- How do you design new encounters and monsters when classes and specs don’t change, since you can’t change anything without running into the same homogenization/bloating issue?
The entire reason why we have ‘borrowed power’ systems is because it gives you something new each expansion while ensuring that class strength/weaknesses/diversity remain in-tact. To be frank, borrowed power isn’t a perfect system, it has trade-offs, just like before we started having borrowed power. But there’s no perfect solution.
WoW: We made these cool things for you
Player: Awesome!
WoW: Yeah but its gonna cost you.
Player: But… I paid a sub…
WoW: No, no, we got that. We mean this cool thing is gonna cost you
Player: Like gold?
WoW: No, YOU, you at the keyboard. Its gonna cost you.
Player: Why? Can’t you just give us something cool without attaching some kind of barb to it?
WoW: You wont appreciate it unless you EEEEAARRRRN it!
Player: But I already think its cool… I already want to…
WoW: You have to EEEEAARRRRN it!
Player: But…
WoW: EEEEAARRRRN it!
Player: …
WoW: EEEEAARRRRN!
Player: Okay bye.
WoW: …
Player:
WoW: Thanks for your sub.
Player:
WoW: See you next Xpac.
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Let’s assume that your idea is implemented, what would be the raids expectation on the raid members of the group when the unlock is available? Probably for the members to unlock the option and switch their covenant based on encounter.
Id rather have the system that their implementing than your proposal.
See we can meet some common ground! Because I agree with a lot of what you said. Me using the term borrowed power isn’t a shot at the system itself. My problem with most things in WoW is that there’s this ritual that we do that we release something on launch, it’s broken, it doesn’t work, it causes frustration and it was already stated in Alpha that it should be changed.
We then go through the entire expansion until we finally reach a point that makes the players happy and then it goes away. That’s the issue I have with it.
I also think that not every ability truly needs to be functional when they add it. Some abilities they add can be just for more class flavor and fun. Like Eyes of the Beast for instance. It serves not functional purpose but to be able to play around with your pet for a little bit.
But BFA showcased the problem with borrowed power. Because Azerite upon launch didn’t have anything more than just Procs that didn’t affect your rotation. So a lot of classes felt incomplete and with the tossed in GCD change, just clunky.
If they get class design right in SL, then this will be the first time we’ve had a launch with good class design with a borrowed power system that adds more flavor to the overall experience.
Yes. And this would only be affecting Mythic Raiders and nobody else.
That’s not even remotely related to anything, not only in this thread, but just in general, so I don’t know what this fictional conversation you’ve made up is supposed to represent.
The thing is that people would still complain about it because the main argument you’re throwing at this borrowed power system would still apply to them returning the RPG elements to the classes themselves.
Imagine they applied this to talents and said that going forward in Shadowlands respeccing would not be available to be done anywhere in a rest area but instead would cost you to respec, and would use the same system as Azerite refunding where the cost doubles every time you do it with it dropping back a step every so often.
The people complaining about not being able to switch between raiding, mythic+, PvP, or world questing builds on a whim would still be complaining that they can’t do that under that system.
I would prefer it if they didn’t use a borrowed power system we’re just going throw out next expansion again, but moving things into the core classes is going to result in the same situation you say you have a problem with Covenants for.
No, I don’t believe that. Returning the old talent trees ship has sailed a long time ago. But that doesn’t all of a sudden mean that RPG elements can’t be added back into class design without upsetting players because Legion took the early steps of bringing those in.
Nobody complained that Hunters could use Flare in the end of Vault of the Wardens to expose hidden enemies and the clone walls on the final boss. Nobody complained when Prot Paladins could expose the demon just by their shield lighting up when they’re near them. Nobody complained when in that same dungeon, when certain classes could lure the minibosses before you fight the 2nd boss.
These are things that added flair to the overall design that enhanced the experience rather than compete and cause issues. They should’ve kept going.
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It’s worth bearing in mind I’ve been rather clear that whenever I personally am talking about RPG elements I am talking about things about your character build that often can’t just be changed on a whim, if at all.
I want interesting and meaningful choices about my character that can’t just be changed on a whim.
The flavour of things like flare are nice, but I’d like some more substance to my RPG elements.
What you’re describing sounds a whole lot like everything should be catered to the min/maxers and I only get stuff if it doesn’t offend them too badly.
I know you’re saying you want to make everybody happy, but I’m really getting second class citizen vibes here.
Then you’re going to have to explain to me how you’re a second class citizen when both sides are getting the gameplay experience they want. All the while not infringing upon the other sides gameplay experience.
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We only need to look at WoW’s history and the present day mentality of the community to know this isn’t true. SIMs, Warcraftlogs, and raiderio all are used by all types of players to force their will on other players. Players at all levels are pressured by the group and raid leaders of all levels to conform to what’s optimal. It’s just ingrained in the community. I’m not saying it’s done maliciously, as I’ve often used the same tools to optimize my character for progression back when I cared about doing that stuff. But to say only Mythic raid teams would demand this is disingenuous. Raid, Mythic+, and Arena teams at all levels would require their team members to choose the most optimal covenant if the option to change at will is available.
If you don’t mind a greasy mouse and keyboard.
I usually have some kind of drink during my gameplay and save the popcorn for the movies or show.
It feels that way because the min/maxers basically get everything they want and when I have a concern about it hurting my gameplay experience you straight up tell me it doesn’t matter.
So the min/maxers get to switch freely exactly like they want and I get told that my opinions don’t matter and that there’s no problems for me(even though I very clearly have problems with how this work).
Of course it sounds like sunshine and rainbows for everybody to you who is denying that my opinion is even valid in the first place.
I only said that because you used Raids as an example. Of course other avenues would be affected by this. But what about players who partake in all of those elements on a more serious degree. They do Mythic Raiding, high keys and are over Gladiator rating in PvP. If the Covenants are vastly different to where one’s great for PvE and another’s great for PvP then there’s a problem. Because now those players have to make a choice as to which one’s going to be their primary while the other one’s going to fall short.
For me personally, I don’t agree with a system like that. If a player wants to go after different avenues in the game, their in-game RPG decision shouldn’t play a part as to why when they compete with teams who actually did take the PvP Covenant are winning and the player in question is losing.
So you kept repeating over and over again in this post that you think that I’m shrugging off your concern. But the problem is that I’m telling you that having a restriction to this and knowing Blizzards balancing will possibly result in people being upset if they want to partake in multiple avenues of the game and be competitive. And then that’s being shrugged off.
I’m going to make a bold assumption that the issue lies in the fact that players who do more and push themselves are getting something to compensate for that while the casual players get nothing. I bring up the comment that casual players don’t partake in content in such a serious degree that the Covenant decision wouldn’t be so drastic and that constantly gets overlooked.
No top end player is going to waltz into casual content and do things like take their Heroic raid spots. That RP exists for your world because it doesn’t require anything else and doesn’t infringe upon your gameplay. Essentially your gameplay experience is being infringed upon by the knowledge that other players having it easier because it fits their gameplay style.
Not even trying to talk trash or anything, but I think that’s a little crappy.