Rogue tank feedback

I am convinced no one on the team is trying rogue tanking or know how to play rogue effectively. I have stuck with it hoping it would improve every phase and every time we get an inch of progress every other class gets miles leaving us in the dust…

Please remove Just a flesh wound’s dependence on blade dance for the extra survivability. Why we need 2 runes baseline for tanking is beyond me. As is how this made it this many phases like it is. (Yes I know you dont have to use blade dance and I currently don’t but it also then makes me not much better than any random dps just tanking…)

It saddens me to see the primary change to rogues being 4 poisons that we effectively can’t use. It’s time… Please let poisons and windfury stack. This is probably overlooked because DPS rogues just get poisons passively through deadly brew. Boy I sure would love to be able to use a utility poison but since I need deadly offhand and dont just naturally get 3 types of poisons like dps rogues, I am hosed. OR make Deadly brew baseline.

Please set mutilate back to a higher energy cost (doesn’t have to be 60). With the increase crit rate it receives from backstab AND it providing 2 combo points its still leagues ahead of Saber slash from a usability standpoint. Any target swapping whatsoever and saber slash is dead. We need weapon diversity. Or put the crit chance deep into the assn tree instead. Or make saber slash give 2 Combo points (it still won’t have the crit and will be harder to use because we need carnage to even compete, but it might just be viable then…) OR move the carnage rune to a different slot and make it reduce poison damage done. OR make the positional requirement of backstab apply to mutilate (like it should, even the talent works from the front…) I want to use swords. I hate daggers and am so sick of being pigeonholed into them.

I’m glad to see us getting crimson tempest and shuriken toss giving many combo points. We might finally be able to hold aoe threat like our (now even more somehow buffed) paladin counterparts. might

Unfair advantage is still capped at 1 hit back per second. It is effectively useless when it could otherwise be a powerful niche that plays into our avoidance.

At the end of the day there is still no good reason to take a rogue tank over any other tank in any scenario currently. Even with our solid avoidance, we can still get RNG’d down and are riskier for prog. Then post prog every other tank is just leagues better.

Give us a wall please…

Main Gauche… LOL… absolutely unusable on its current slot…

I am so unbelievably disappointed that Paladin got a war and peace level dissertation on being great and we got a few line items that we should have had 2 phases ago. We are so behind and its truly sad and becoming a dead dream. I held out until this phase but I may not be long for this phase. I can’t do this anymore.

5 Likes

Its criminal there is not a rune that plays into taking ghostly strike and riposte for tanking …

Instead we get complete copy pasted runes from other wow version, 0 imagination.

in my perfect world theres a playstyle involving main gauche, ghostly strike and riposte.

  • rune to make riposte cleave ?
  • rune to make ghostly lower CD on dodges / bake unfair advantage into ghostly strike buff.
  • unfair advantage should be 1s CD PER target, not on the rune itself
  • main gauche ? no idea this rune is complete dead if mutilate exists
  • shiv ? lol.
  • shuriken toss change is nice.
  • head slot is just, take whichever sims higher, none of them change gameplay at all very much.

Deadly brew should just be baseline at this point.

4 Likes

Amen to that…

2 Likes

I completely agree. Idk what to do anymore. I’ve been harping on rogue tanks needing a buff since phase 2. Giving us something else other than JUST Mutilate.

The buff to our aoe is much appreciated. But many of our runes are still garbage. Who even uses Main Gauche? Who uses Unfair Advantage? Runes that were made to be “tanking runes” are absolute jokes.

I’ve asked for buffs on the forums. I’ve asked for buffs on Twitter/X. And we still have nothing. No help. Just spam Mutilate to be viable. Idk……I wanna play my rogue tank, but it just sucks that we feel so underpowered compared to other tanks. Just feels bad man. Idk what to do. Maybe rogue tanking is just not for me and I’m just now realizing it.

Rogue tanks will still be fine going into P4 arguably better as it seems like blunders snap threat seems pretty big and solves one of are biggest issues that was AoE.

for me its just the whole gameplay design of tank rogue is such a missed opportunity, my first reaction to the name ‘just a flesh wound’ was a design akin to brewmaster monks stagger mechanic.

I would be happy if they bake blade dance into slice and dice.

Using cut to the chase on bracers for tanking rogues made them almost feel complete and honestly I think the best path forwards would be to make that baseline or just make the 20% damage reduction just part of the kit.

It’s so close to being an awesome feeling tank to play and I have no idea why you wouldn’t just capitalise on that by removing the one clunky part of the whole kit and giving it some breathing room

2 Likes

Yup couldn’t agree more… they need to just give in like 1 or 2 areas and bam rogue tank feels good.

Instead we are like getting everyone elses equivalent of Phase 2 buffs going into phase 4… Forever behind…

No, stop trying to nerf this ability, instead ask for a Saber Slash/Back Stab buff ffs. Everything else you said was fine, until you asked for a Mutilate nerf.

2 Likes

Honestly dude/dudette?! Are you just incapable of having to stand behind a target to mutilate it? Does mutilate at 40 energy provide the crutch you need to feel like you’re a “good” rogue? Go read slaughter from the shadows rune and then try and tell us again why mutilate couldn’t go back to 60 energy but then be reduced by slaughter from the shadows like it should’ve been. Mutilate is so overpowered it’s literally the only rune being used for tanks and dps while the other weapons and talent options that would most likely be more worthwhile aren’t even being considered because of how absurdly OP frkin mutilate is. Base dmg on daggers really isn’t so far under swords that they need so much +dmg buff to a spell and especially with how fast daggers are compared to swords, and maces… fist weapons would be hawt stuff too if it made sense to spec down the combat tree for blade fury and adrenaline.

1 Like

Nah what I said there was fine as well. The ability is probably the most front-loaded ability in the game right now. It’s not good design for it to contain so much power all on its own. That power needs removed from the ability and dispersed into other areas.

No one is asking for rogues to do less dps when they want mutilate nerfed.

We are asking that the majority of a rogues damage not be stacked into a single button press. The class is FAR too reliant on that single ability right now.

3 Likes

[quote=“Silentassn-wild-growth, post:1, topic:1
875462”]Just a flesh wound’s dependence on blade dance for the extra survivability. Why we need 2 runes baseline for tanking is beyond me. As is how this made it this many phases like it is. (Yes I know you dont have to use blade dance and I currently don’t but it also then makes me not much better than any random dps just tanking…)

It saddens me to see the primary change to rogues being 4 poisons that we effectively can’t use. It’s time… Please let poisons and windfury stack. This is probably overlooked because DPS rog
[/quote]

Yeah I do think Main Gauche AND Blade Dance need to go Baseline. 2 runes to be able to tank is terrible. Rogues don’t need to outdps anyone when tanking they need to OUTTHREAT everyone.

One of the major problems that drives me away from tanking for pugs lies in rogues needing time to build their mitigation and tps (SND and Blade Flurry) when pulling. Add to that the pratical lack of aoe threat, needing the combo points to build and maintain the mitigation with the added disadvantage of losing the combo points while changing targets.

Redirect has a cooldown and it doesn’t cut due to how often we lose threat on a group of mobs.
This leads to rogue tanking dungeons doing pull after pull in rapid succession (to keep snd and bd up) puting a lot of pressure on the healer. This is the main reason I avoid healing in PUGs with rogues tanking.

Question: Sleight of Hand - This talent what does it do when using Just a Flesh Wound?
1-2% less crit? 10-20% increased threat reduction on Feint? It needs to change when under Just a Flesh Wound reducing all damage instead and increasing overall threat generation. That would be useful.

Proposed changes:

Change to Glove runes:
Remove Main Gauche make it Baseline refreshing Ghostly Strike Effect or reseting its cooldown.

Add Shuriken Toss (the unnerfed version with higher range on chains) that applies a stacking bleed effect.

Change to Leg Runes:

Blade Dance moved to baseline, the new Crimson Tempest added instead.
Rogues will have the option of AoE with Bleed or Single Target with Envenom. Helps DPS rogues as well.

Add Crimson Tempest - with added improved demoralizing shout/roar effect

Changes to Neck Runes

Crimson Tempest moved to Legs - with added improved demoralizing shout/roar effect

Add Venomous Wounds (Cataclysm)

Change to Just a Flesh Wound
Also adds Recuperate (Cataclysm) as a Finisher, self regeneration generate a lot of threat while adding an additional layer of complexity to rogue tanking to offset the following change:
Combo points aren’t lost when switching targets.
Add a “Charge” like ability like Warlock’s Tank Rune without the stun (rogues already have stuns) - but instead Jumps IN FRONT of the target throwing an AoE Flash Bomb that creates a smoke for 6 sec that dazzles while reducing attack speed and hit rate for 6 sec to all targets that enter the area keeping their threat on the rogue. Awards 2 CP. Only usable out of combat.
(This + Main Gauche allows the rogue to follow with blade dance).

Changes to Belt Runes

Shuriken Toss: improved range on chain, applies bleed and moved to Gloves

Change to Poisoned Knife: also refreshes all rogue bleed effects on target, both in close quarters and distance.
It will help both dps and tank rogues to keep their bleeds on target. Rogue tanks already have to worry a lot about not dropping their mitigation during disconnects.

Shadowstep
Out of the GCD moved to baseline
Add Cloak of Shadows instead

Addressing some issues regarding Subtlety usefulness:

Changes to Hemorrhage: benefits from all talents/effects that modifies Sinister Strike. Charges removed. Increase in damage also affects spells and magical effects.

Serrated Blades: Attacks ignore 10/20/30% of armor. Rogue bleed effects deal 10/20/30% more damage. Add Sanguinary Vein (Cataclysm) to the talent.

Sleight of Hand - when in conjuction with It Just a Flesh Wound - Reduces all damage by 3/6% and increases threat generation by 10/20%

Setup:
2 talent point - 25/50% chance to gain CP on dodge.

1 Like

Delusional take. Mutilate is definitely not over-tuned, what would happen if you nerfed it? Rogues wouldn’t be where they are at on dps. Like I said before, instead of nerfing a playstyle you don’t enjoy, ask for buffs to Saberslash and Backstab, make it as competitive as Mutilate. You clowns are the reason why Aggrend can’t take Rogue feedback seriously.

I like these suggestions a lot. Can we also make evis an option for at least some rogue playstyle, i’ve seen some cool suggestions regarding a bleed playstyle. Combat or sub tree. At this point envenom should just replace evis and get talent bonuses from it, but evis is iconic so please don’t.

yes please! What about something like evisc applying expose or something, would be kinda cool. or refreshing a rupture/bleeds, giving rupture a use and playing into the bleeds of carnage and Saberslash builds

1 Like

upon some thought about what to do with main gauche …

How about turning it into a finisher for tank rogues instead of a combo builder ?
maybe a finisher that gives us a buff that allows us to parry a % of damage of magic attacks ?

This along with my suggest above about incorporating riposte+ghostly strike, it could create a neat build where you would go down sub abit - hemo becoming a combo builder for tanks ?

Back on SoD announcement i had an idea for taking setup for combo point gen but blizzard really just band-aided our combo points issue by giving us Honor Among Thieves since Redirect is complete garbage.

1 Like

Tbh, I’d take just about any viability changes but seeing so far the lack of communication tells me that this set of “absolutely not set in stone changes” are like 97% set in stone per usual already… I hate to be so jaded but this pattern has been consistent. Was really hoping sod was gunna be different as it seemed to start out that way.

Mutilate isn’t the issue. Changing Saberslash to be 40 energy, would actually fix most of that issue. We’d be able to spec down to 35 energy, and ultimately More hits = more stacks. I dont think the answer is “Nerfing” DPS rogues, but bringing the other combo builders more on par with mutilate.

The biggest issue im noticing with the new PTR, is Crimson Tempest & Fan of knives being on the same rune slot. Crimson Tempest will be the ONLY NEW Finisher that Tank Rogues will even be able to use. Even worse, if the tier bonus that was leaked is true, Rogue Tanks will be REQUIRED to use 3 rune slots just to pull aggro without button mashing tease. That also will remove Crimson Tempest. So while everyone else is playing SoD, we will be doing classic damage JUST to hold aggro.

I don’t think dps rogues need nerfed nor have I ever advocated for that. I think the power needs spread elsewhere. Mutilate is absolutely stacked atm.

2 combo points
hits with both weapons
40 energy
huge increased crit chance from tree
20% increased dmg to poisoned enemies
20% increased damage period (should be position-ally from behind, but it works anywhere).

1 Like

Exactly. Mutilate is too busted.

Main Gauche needs to be significantly buffed to compete with Mutilate.

Main Gauche:
-cost 15 energy
-generate 3 combo points
-refresh Blade Dance
-remove cooldown

OR, just make Main Gauche a baseline ability.

Agreed that set bonus forcing us into fan of knives is peak SoD Rogue development.

Almost as good as shiv.