Rogue Talent Trees

Hello! I know this isn’t the beta forums but I have seen that every class is getting some dev feedback except for the rogues on the beta forums. As I don’t have Beta access, but do have PTR access, I wanted to put in my feedback in hopes that this possibly gets seen and maybe a Dev will reply on the rogue section in the beta forums!

  • Please move Shadow dance off the class tree. It’s crippling rogue as a whole right now
  • Please change Thistle Tea. This talent is not fun to use at all.
  • I totally understand allowing players to make “bad” builds, however there are plenty of talents in the rogue tree that are modified by other talents, and therefore it is currently possible to build a rogue tree with talents that will automatically be turned off because of lacking a different talent. In my opinion it is fine to be able to build a bad build but that bad build should at least function. For example many sub talents are dependent on Find Weakness, however Find Weakness is not necessarily going to be taken therefore, those talents will straight up not work. That doesn’t make sense.

Thank you and hopefully Devs are able to respond to all the rogues in the beta forums!

7 Likes

I am going to post my feedback here as to concentrate all Rogue feedback to one thread.

Today I am going to cover the General Rogue tree.

The left side of the Rogue General talent tree feels good. The one exception could be Thistle Tea but Thistle Tea works as advertised so far on the PTR. However, there is an issue I am seeing as a common theme. That common theme of energy talents that keeps popping up throughout the Rogue General Talent Tree and the Spec talent trees that I will cover a bit later.

The middle of the tree feels good as well although Echoing Reprimand has its own issues due to how unpredictable Rogue CP generation is for all three specs now compared to lets say ten years ago. Ten years ago I think Echoing Reprimand would have been awesome. But with how all three spec evolved since then trying to land on the exact CP to use an animacharged CP is tough lol.

I like the concepts of Thistle Tea and Echoing Repreimand but they need slight tweaks and quality of life improvements IMO. This is also because both these talents have to compete with Shadow Dance as cap stone talents.

The right side of the Rogue General talent tree has several issues I have to question.

First, the energy saving talents are great but for example Sub spec tree is swimming with energy saving talents all over the tree. The flipside is that Assassination and Outlaw feel way too slow without energy saving talents from their respective spec trees. So the energy saving talents in the Rogue General tree are welcomed by both specs IF they skip the energy saving talents in their respective spec talent trees.

So, the Rogue General talent tree having loads of talents that help save energy isn’t a bad thing for specs like Outlaw and Assassination. This is because you can make builds that are energy starved very easily.

However, it feels that the Rogue General Talent tree and all three respective tree have more energy saving talents than actual utility or it seems that way.

The easiest solution is to make Relentless Strikes baseline for all three specs again.

By doing that you can cut down on the number of energy saving talents in the Rogue General Tree and spec trees.

Also ensures that a new or inexperienced player can not make a build that is energy starved. And it also opens up new build possibilities for Rogues by having Relentless Strikes baseline again for all three Rogue specs.

Second issue is with the positioning of Elusiveness. Leeching Poison and Cheat Death. All three are survivability talents for different situations but their current positioning forces certain DPS builds. Is that the intended design intention? I have no clue so any feedback would be appreciated!

Talent trees are supposed to force you to make an opportunity cost but that seems steep to me. Especially if Shadow Dance remains at the bottom right of the Rogue General Talent tree.

Third, Shadow Dance is considered the signature of Sub so I am not sure how it will be balanced for Sub Rogues without relying too much on dance. Also how will Assassination and Outlaw be balanced with Shadow Dance in mind?

It seems to me that this may prove to be a monumental task to balance all three specs around Shadow Dance.

Thanks for your time and I will think of more things to say later regarding each spec talent tree.

:surfing_man: :surfing_woman:

5 Likes

I can only comment on certain things right now before I forget. This will be mostly be about Assassination and since I don’t have Beta access I’ll just write it here and update as I have more time to play with the trees.

Core Tree:
In general, I don’t think all of our ultility should be tied to the the tree. I’m talking evasion, Cloak and feint. Perhaps, it should be talents that improve their group ultility instead if it’s supposed to be about ultility.

Assassination:
They are things I’m just confused about. Mainly why isn’t master poisoner baseline? Right now it’s split into 3 talents. The spec is the “Poison spec” even though it seems more like the bleed spec.

Why is poison bomb not an active skill? It should be like like hunters Wild Bomb. The main difference being it depends on what (lethal) poisons are used. Right now the ability just feels random.

Deathmark didn’t work for me on ptr. It’s also kind of boring of an ability based on the discription at least Vendetta let you see invisible targets. Plus a lot of other classes or races have the ability to completely invalidate this CD.

Instead of using ambush, why not bring back the blindslide ability?

Also bring back Hemorrhage.

4 Likes

Feedback for all three specs:

Subtlety:

Sub has too many energy talents for a spec that is meant to pool energy. Sub has no problem with CP generation thanks to talents like Shadow Blades, Shadow techniques, etc.

Alacrity tied to Marked for Death seems odd as a Sub Rogue doesn’t need that much haste because of how the spec pools energy for shadow dances and the plethora of energy talents the spec has access to in the Sub talent tree.

Thistle Tea seems redundant for Sub since it has access to so many energy talents in the Sub talent tree.

Outlaw:

My suggestion is to put all the sword slashing talents to the left side of the Outlaw talent tree, keep the gun toting talents to the right of the Outlaw talent tree. And then move all the ambush associated talents in the middle of the Outlaw talent tree with the RTB talent. Ambush interaction with Outlaw hinges on RTB buffs and variations.

Assassination:

Need more active talents and making Poison Bomb an active on use talent would be cool!

Deathmark has potential but the problem is that it relies on a target having the DoTs stay on. If the DoTs are lost it is a 2 min CD down the drain very rapidly. Maybe give it a mechanic where the CD is reduced by 20 seconds if the duration is cut short? Something similar to Night Fae Sepsis would be cool.

Assassination definitely needs to have Shiv be used only for utility.

:surfing_man: :surfing_woman:

3 Likes

Yea, the energy talents are kinda weird. Some talents like that are fine , like using vigor over strat when doing chill stuff like WQs or something. But with the new tree we’re practically tripping over them, and potentially ending in spots with too much energy.

Then there’s the invisible elephant in the room: Improved Backstab. Is still NYI, and we don’t know how it’s supposed to work yet.

Will it require Find Weakness from the class tree before it does anything? Or will it use a lower rank of FW until the actual talent is taken? In either case, it will feel bad to pick up a talent that doesn’t work (fully or otherwise) without another.

Or, in reverse, if backstab gives full FW on its own, it will feel even worse to spend 2 points in the class tree for it. Even with the reduced duration, it shouldn’t be hard to maintain uptime with one spell or the other. Especially if one grabs a few crit modifier talents.

2 Likes

With this post I will examine talents that I think are redundant, don’t improve game play that much or don’t flow with the class/spec (in my opinion of course) talent tree in terms of theme and interactions.

First lets start with the talents from each spec.

Sub:

Shot in the Dark talent makes Cheap Shot free when entering stealth but Shadow Focus talent is basically the same thing. Why not remove Shot in the Dark and buff Shadow Focus to 50% energy discount when in stealth or dance and move it down in the tree in place of Shot in the Dark talent?

Night Terrors in theory would be good except Sub Rogues now have access to Crippling Poison. I suppose being able to use another utility poison is a perk of picking up this talent. Night Terrors talent was introduced when Sub Rogues did not have access to Crippling Poison.

Sepsis seems out of place for Sub Rogue as it seems that Outlaw and Assassination have more interplay with it. This is because Assassination is known more with loading up DoTs and Outlaw uses ambush for Count the Odds talent interaction. With so much access to stealth, dance charges and vanish charges I am not sure how much value Sub Rogues receive having access to Sepsis for a 5 sec stealth window duration. Seems redundant to me IMO.

Shrouded in Darkness is positioned in the far left of the tree which is confusing because Outlaw has its party talent buff dead in the center. Shouldn’t Shrouded in Darkness talent be positioned in the center of the tree as well?

Gloomblade is on the left side of the tree but talents that interact with Gloomblade are found on the right side of the tree (eg Veltouched, Dark Brew). Also Improved Backstab is on the left side of the tree, so shouldn’t Gloomblade be on the right side of the talent tree?

Assassination:

Thematically of the three trees Assassination is set up nicely. You have bleed associated talents and utility to the right. And to the left you have more utility and FoK/Crimson Tempest talents. Poison talents could be re-arranged toward the center but other than that the format looks the best of the three so far. Only concern I have is that Assassination may need more active talents here and there in the tree IMO. Probably could merge several passive talents to make space for some more active ones. For example Improved Poison talent can be merged with Poison damage talent.

Outlaw:

Ghostly Strike being a choice talent node with Sepsis doesn’t make sense. Ghostly Strike does interact with your rotation like Sepsis. But Ghostly Strike is about melee damage interaction while Sepsis with Count the Odds interacts with RTB buffs.

Ambidexterity and Improved MG seems redundant and might as well merge the two talents.

Ambidexterity is positioned on the right side of the talent tree. To reach Improved MG that deep on the right side of the tree you are picking up Ambidexterity talent along the way anyways.

That is all for now. I will think of more later. Thanks!

:surfing_man: :surfing_woman:

1 Like

So I wanted to follow up with my original post and add some more detailed thoughts to this!! To clarify I main Sub in raid and mythic plus, it is by far my favorite spec in the game.

Class tree:

Firstly, thank you for moving Atrophic Poison to the class tree! This is a great change and allows for sub to not be the only spec without raid utility! Some thoughts or concerns for things that are difficult to work around:

  • the 3-point nodes of both Alacrity and Lethality feel bad and discourage me from using them due to the high-cost and low benefit. They both provide a very minimal – negligent change in how the class plays but cost 3 talent points each.
  • Some of the movement speed buffs in this class tree feel redundant. So far, for movement speed talents, the class tree has
    • Shadow Runner: stealth increases movement speed to 20%
    • Shadowstep: a 25 yd portal to a player or npc
    • Improved Sprint: reduces sprint cooldown by 60 seconds
    • Fleet Footed: flat movement speed increase to 15%

While these all technically do different things, they feel redundant and therefore not great to take

  • Echoing Reprimand, in my opinion, was the worst of the 4 covenant abilities. I never went to Kyrian, primarily because trying to play a guessing game of which combo point would be charged was enfuriating. I realize that the following talent (Resounding Clarity) is supposed to help with this, however it is locked behind 2 talent points and is still a problem. I would much rather see the Necrolord ability and legendary ability fill those spots
  • Thistle Tea is horrendous. This talent is beyond useless let alone the fact that it is a capstone talent. At the moment there are many talents that help with energy regen. I understand that energy regen talents are much more useful to assassination, but even they are saying Thistle Tea is useless. At the moment here are the ways built in to increase energy regen/reduce energy cost in the class tree alone:
    • Nimble Fingers: reduces energy cost of Feint and Crimson Vial (5)
    • Rushed Setup: reduces en. cost of KS, CS, Sap, and Distract (20%)
    • Improved Sap: reduces en. cost of Sap (by 100%!!)
    • Tight Spender: reduces en. cost of finishing moves (8%)
    • Vigor: Increases max energy by 50 and increase regen by (10%)
    • Alacrity: Increases haste by up to 21% * 5 stacks = 105% haste
    • Thistle Tea: grants 100 energy (3 charges)

This is ridiculous. To go through the entire talent tree with all these ways to conserve and gain energy, by the time you get to what is supposed to be the best talent at the bottom, it is a huge let down.

Shadowstep. Here we are. The biggest comment of the whole class tree. This talent does not belong here. Many people have already talked about this and it has been stated many times how this shouldn’t be in the class tree as none of the other rogue specs have to give up something this iconic from their spec. By including this in the class tree it is just another way that subs uniqueness and spec identity is being shredded, and flushed down a toilet in the back of a gas station bathroom. (Exaggerated for emphasis)

Spec tree:

So, again, I am focusing on Subtlety as that is my main and what I know.

  • To reiterate some of the redundancy mentioned above about the class tree, here are some more movement speed talents!:
    • Shadowstep (again)
    • Quick Decisions: reduces shadowstep’s cooldown and increases range
    • Shrouded in Darkness: adds a movement speed buff to Shroud of Concealment that only effects players when they are out of combat
    • Fade to Nothing: movement speed increase (20%) during stealth or shadow dance
  • Shadow Mist is yet another version of the Kyrian ability, which most rogues agree sucks
  • Deeper Strategem has shown up in the class tree and the spec tree. It has also been confirmed on the rogue discord that it is meant to go no further than 6 cp at a time. This means that one of these is literally unusable, however in order to get to the best or only abilities in the tree that are viable for sub, we have to take both. So currently as it stands, one of these is a literal waste of a talent point as one of them won’t work. That’s just insulting
  • Currently it is possible to build not just bad builds but builds with multiple talents picked but turned off due to other talents not being taken. I understand allowing players to make mistakes and make builds but I don’t think it should be possible to make a build where some of the talents you pick literally are turned off. For example, Shadowed Finishers in the Sub tree says “Eviscerate and Black Powder deal an additional 20% damage as shadow to targets with your Find Weakness active”, however Find Weakness is not baseline and is actually close to the bottom of the class tree, so it is very easy to pick this talent without having Find Weakness. Therefore, this talent could literally be turned off. The same can be said for most of Sub’s tree pertaining to Shadow Dance. Again bad builds are fine, but they should at least be usable.

My last point is this: with another beta build going out, and still no blue posts for rogues since the talents were introduced on July 14th (3 months ago) I am starting to lose hope we will see any of these get fixed.

3 Likes

Something I’m wondering about is if the Deeper Stratagem and Shadow Dance talents are supposed to stack when you pick them on both trees.

Currently, they don’t stack at all, and in fact, there’s a bug with Deeper Stratagem where it will actually revert the maximum combo points down to 5 when you switch to a Talent Loadout with just one stack of Deeper Stratagem talents.

Before Shadowlands, Shadow Dance used to have 2 charges, so it looks like the Talents are supposed to be able to give you two charges if you pick it on both trees. Otherwise, it’s a waste of talent points.

3 Likes

I haven’t really been able to play with the talents yet but While building out my talent tree for my Assassination Rogue, I noticed that Shiv, which is given to all Assassination Rogues from the beginning, and Shadowstep are in both the Rogue Tree and the Assassination Tree. If it gives no additional benefit, as in giving us a second charge, then why is this the case. It’s basically forcing us to waste two points in one of the trees just to get other points that we might find beneficial. It’s also funny because Shiv in the Assassination Tree is two steps below Improved Shiv.

Thistle Tea is just boring. It feels like we are given a energy regain button just to intercept our normal rotations.

Zoldyck Recipe, as a three point talent seems a bit overkill. Giving us something that was previous on Gear and then making it a pure damage boost talent that blocks a final talent in the tree just feels almost required to input points there and takes away from the others that are positioned the same. From my knowledge people will always pick pure damage boost over ability-based damage boost. As well, if it is supposed to increase both Poison and Bleeds, and the tree is sometimes built to make you choose between a poison or a bleed ability, I feel it should at least be higher in the tree.

Poison Bomb, Why is this not based-line for Assassination Rogue. It usually is a substantial and important pick. If no included with Assassination, then it should be a second or third row pick. Not third to last.

The final thing I want to point out is the fact that if, in the Assassination Tree, you go down the middle route you are not able to reach the final talent currently in the PTR. On the Left and Right paths, you can reach your final talent point. This is due to Poison Bomb having 2 required points where the left and right path have 1 required point to reach, just two branching paths. but since branching paths are not required you can reach your final point and have points to spare.

5 Likes

So I’ve been looking at assassination tree mostly and discussing a few different talents with a few suggestions to make some talents more worth while to take first talent that I think needs slight rework is Venom RUSH. at this point to be hones this talent is more lack luster then lack luster. I would recommend to give it either the following effects

  1. murder → old vanilla talent increasing damage done to specific damage. IN this case I would say to buff poison and bleed damage by 1-5%

another option since its a energy ability

  1. ruthlessness → finishing moves per combo point have x% chance to grant you 25 energy

The next talent that I would also look @ which I think is way too weak is TINY TOXIC BLADE. This legendary effect was barely ever picked up and would recommend a modification. Firstly I would consider either baking this into another talent, or modifying it further into the follow additions

Hemorrhage → your shiv now also adds an additional bleed which increases bleed damage by x%, this debuf lasts 30 seconds (timer base idea would be changed) If damage would be too much, maybe give it an envenom effect of application but at a lower rate of poison application, just ideas.

or maybe something like

Chronic Venom → your shiv now also causes your finishers a 10% per combo point to not consume any combo points. Lasts 8 seconds.

These are a few of the ideas. for those 2 talents I think are way too week.

Another Talent which I think needs some consideration is Twist the knife. This talent feels like it needs to buff envenom overall damage slighly similar to the trait in bfa or we can make maybe, make poisons tick based off combo point tick quicker, this % can be relatively low to give it slightly some rng on it. I wouldn’t have to be 100% but maybe up to 25-30% at max combo points.

Lastly Indiscriminate carnage. This talent looks like alot of fun to have definitely, but I would add the additional effect from the old rogue legendary but in a twist kind of way.

After applying a rupture you gain 1 stack of Indiscriminate carnage, this effect stacks up to 10 times. Once you hit 10 stacks your next finisher will not consume combo points and gain (fangs of the father affect). Your finisher for the next 5 seconds will not consume combo points.

These are a few ideas I have for the assassination tree wanted to hear what you guys think overall. I’ve been fooling around with it and feel these could be some cool ideas :).

Cheers all!

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It appears I got into the beta, I’m happy to repost some of this stuff on the rogue feedback forum if you fellow rogues like. We should probably make a little uniform.

I definitely see some people agree poison bomb should be an active ablitiy. I see good suggestions for other specs as well.

3 Likes

Agreed my brother, I’m picking up everything to make energy regen to be a ms smooth as possible.

The new node connections allow for a lot of nice mix and matches on things which is welcome for all 3 of us.

All I really want is for gloom/backstab to do some decent damage as they have introduced in the tree outside of dance. Dance spamming isn’t iconic or fun and should be our heck yeah moment.

I wish a sanguinary vein effect was attached to FW so down time doesn’t turn to crap damage. Currently on PTR , you have dance back usually before symbols comes back on a single impactful dance and that is what I wanted big time. 1 fat dance and then some wicked backstabs till it was time again.

We will have to see moving forward what goes on and hopefully the PTR catches up to Beta today so we can properly report bugs / other findings.

1 Like

With class design winding down I can safely say that Rogue talent trees are in a C+ range. When they were first previewed they were okay but as time went on the flaws in the trees were more noticeable.

Currently tuning is going to change the perception of the trees anyways in some regards. But in other ways I can’t shake the thoughts that I have regarding a lot of core abilities being part of a talent tree. Time will tell if this approach is good for old and new players alike moving forward!

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man:

Let’s get some changes for Paladin. Rogues are fine

NO!

Rogues need help!!

Help!

HELP!

HElp talent trees.

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man:

The change of the Shiv in the Assassination tree to Lightweight Shiv was a very welcomed changed. I still think that Poison Bomb should either be just 1 talent point or baseline and replaced with something else. If you place points down the tree you can technically get BOTH the left and right final talent of the Assassination tree but if you go for the middle talent then you can’t get either the right or the left final talent in the tree. I don’t think that middle talent is worth both of those side final talents put together.

Even with Thistle Tea now giving mastery for 6 seconds I don’t feel it’s a very desirable talent to take. It still has a 3 minute cooldown and even with 3 Charges on it, you would only be able to have Mastery for a total of 18 seconds straight. The instant Energy regen it gives just isn’t desirable in modern World of Warcraft.

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I know time’s running out here, but can anything be done about Cold Blood and Thistle Tea?

Cold Blood has generally only been relevant in gimmicky/niche pvp builds (like the Vanish+Envenom oneshot in WoD), and doesn’t add much to the main tree.

And has been said by tons of other people, Tea is kinda meh , mastery or no. Personally, I’ve warmed up to it a little as an easy-ish option for new assassins (and low haste at launch…), but even then it still doesn’t feel like a capstone. Sorry.

If Tea simply has to exist, I think it would feel better where Cold Blood currently lives. Even if it loses the mastery by being moved up, it would at least have some symmetry with Marked for Death, and would be an optional thing.

As for a replacement how about either:

Upgrade Cold Blood to basically be the Blood of the Enemy azerite essence (but with red spell fx)?

Or, some version of Shadow of the Destroyer from the Cata legendaries? Since we’re going to the Dragon Isles, it would be the perfect time to get our wings back!

2 Likes

the cap stones in the common tree have, in a way, removed choice.
Thistle tea is bad unless you play Assassin.
Shadow dance was a spec specific ability and the whole reason i dont play sub. I hate this ability.
ER is the biggest offender. there are 4 covenant abilities, 4. yet ER has been made a capstone in the common tree. If you play Outlaw you can no longer pick Flag or Bonespike. I cannot stand this ER mini game.
the dev in charge of this is obviously a sub rogue who loved ER. So Shadow Dance and ER are here to stay. I hate these abilities.
that leaves thistle tea.

Please, its not too late.
replace Thistle Tea.

1 Like