Eh, not really bothered to honestly, literally just spent 2 secs grabbing names. What’s your point though? That Sin can’t perform in m+? That you have to go Outlaw?
Because the charts just don’t support that claim, whether I managed to pick out the correct peeps or not 
I mean clearly Outlaw is the flavour now and we both agree that the reaping affix plays no small part in that. So like…my point still stands? The person I was responding to was spreading blatant misinformation?
undead.
Don’t listen to anyone else.
its the best.
Dh is alpha. Only go rogue for class fantasy.
Undead Sub Rogues are legit one of my favourite things in WoW 
i take it back.
listen to this person aswell.
she be smurt.
no one else though/
I was expecting you to be specced Sub, I left your profile disappointed ![:disappointed:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/disappointed.png?v=6" ":disappointed:")
just like my family ![:blush:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/blush.png?v=6" ":blush:")
in all reality i need to learn how to damage as sub in pvp. its amazing for rbgs. but i also dont have the traits q-q
Any class, including non meta classes are all viable up to like 12-15 keys depending on the week.
after 15 meta starts kicking in for a lot of people, skilled players can still obviously play non meta classes in 15+
but once you start getting to the 18+ range, meta is important. not sure why you linked those 3 links as they are all identical and just show the front page of the leader boards, but after a certain level key it’s all outlaw.
this in turn trickles down to the 12-15 keys because people who usually do keys in that range do their research and they know outlaw is better than sin.
so yes, sin is viable, but outlaw is king and people know it.
So the guy you were responding to wasn’t spreading misinformation, outlaw is the meta and in a lot of keys that are pugged if you aren’t playing outlaw people will typically find an outlaw.
It all depends on what level keys OP wants to do. But being outlaw right now basically guarantees a spot whereas on a week like this week a DH might be taken over a sin rogue because their aoe for fortified/teeming is meh.
Sin is also very bursty and cannot sustain the damage trash pull to trash pull like Outlaw.
I’ve held a grudge on DHs since Blizz ruined Demo in Legion. Go rogue, far more fun and rewarding to anger DHs that think they get a free win. Plus there’s 3 specs of dps to experiment with than only 1 bland dps spec.
To be fair I do believe that the way to deal damage as Sub in PvP is to not play Sub (though I saw some buffs for Sub in the pipeline at some stage, maybe for 8.2?)
Which would mean that the following statements are wrong, correct?
Because they display different key ranges? You realise that it shows the fact you didn’t even click on two of them right?
Yes and the 15+ range is where Sin loses a lot of ground to Outlaw for sure…but it’s representation is still inline with the bulk of the rest of the DPS specs in the game there…soo certainly not “Outlaw or die” even at what are high level keys for the majority of the playerbase
Except…that’s just not the reality we live in? We live in a world where right up until the 15+ mark Sin representation is very comparable to Outlaws (aka, groups not “just finding an Outlaw Rogue”)
The assertion of the person I was responding to wasn’t “if you want to push super high keys Outlaw is far easier to find groups with” the assertion was “if you want to m+, you have to go Outlaw”
Which…is totally misinformation? Like why would you even argue it’s not, essentially contradicting half of your own post?
Of course, and had OP stated that they’re wanting to push into the 18-20+ range there’d be merit to bringing up Outlaws strength. Most peeps aren’t pushing that high though, so its probs a safe bet that Sin would suit OPs needs just fine if they didn’t like Outlaw
So yah…misinformation
I’m getting quite the “nitpicks for the sake of nitpicking” vibe from you yo. What your saying is barely coherent
dh for easy mode 3 button class.
Ahhh i see what you’re talking about. I was looking at the leader board which they were all identical. you were looking at the % up top.
like I said. it’s not complete miss information. It all depends on the keys OP wants to do. If he want’s to push higher than 15 then yea… it’s outlaw or die for pugs.
nah… it’s exaggeration for sure. not miss information. People in general, regardless of level of key, are generally not that well informed. And your statistical breakup is kinda skewed because looking at 10-14 keys the weight distribution will always favor the lower number. it’s kinda inaccurate.
10 and up is highly favored on the 10 side. since there is a far greater population of players that do their weekly 10 compared to 13’s 14’s and higher.
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-bfa-2/all/us/leaderboards-strict#role=all:mode=unique:minMythicLevel=10:maxMythicLevel=14
digging further into.
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-bfa-2/all/us/leaderboards-strict/9000#content:role=all:mode=unique:minMythicLevel=10:maxMythicLevel=14
this is around page 9000 where the leader board is closer to 14 keys. You can keep going page by page and notice the majority of rogues are outlaw.
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-bfa-2/all/us/leaderboards-strict/12000#content:role=all:mode=unique:minMythicLevel=10:maxMythicLevel=14
Page 12000 where 13’s are. little more assassination representation but still mainly outlaw.
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-bfa-2/all/us/leaderboards-strict/18001#content:role=all:mode=unique:minMythicLevel=10:maxMythicLevel=14
18000… still filled with outlaw but if you click more and more theres more assassins present.
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-bfa-2/all/us/leaderboards-strict/22000#role=all:mode=all:minMythicLevel=10:maxMythicLevel=10
here’s some 11’s. Outlaw still prevalent.
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-bfa-2/all/us/leaderboards-strict/30000#role=all:mode=unique:minMythicLevel=10:maxMythicLevel=10
30k to 42k pages is the range for the 10’s. notice how the gap between pages kept growing… took 3k pages to drop from 14 to 13… took 5k to go from 11 to 10. (roughly) and 10k there was 12k pages total.
my point being… filtering for 10-14 (which is more accurate than your 10 and up) is still outlaw favored %wise a little… but there is much more representation of sin in the 10-11 range where the vast majority sits.
12-14 sin drops off a lot. 15 it’s clear outlaw is the winner.
So while the other guy exaggerated and assumed OP wanted to get into M+ to push, he wasn’t completely misinforming OP about playing Outlaw. because the vast majority of players do play outlaw and leader boards do prove that past the low threshold of keys 10/11 which skew the population due to the reason that there are tons more runs than higher keys.
this is further shown by filtering by Class frequency by run.
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-bfa-2/all/us/leaderboards-strict/42000#role=all:mode=all:minMythicLevel=10:maxMythicLevel=14
this is the same 10-14 filter except using class frequency by run… showing there are far more outlaw rogues that do repeat runs.
with all of this info you can reasonably assume that sin rogues are very prevalent in 10/11 keys where they do one and done for the weeks while outlaw % is much higher in pushing 12-14+ keys over and over.
Again… not miss information, just badly presented information that assumed OP wanted to push for score.
You will get invited into runs well above what you should be in because of kicks, aoe and shrouds. Def go rogue
Ok fair enough, but all of this is based on the assumption that OP wants to, and is capable of, pushing up to those key levels specifically within the frame of this m+ season (since we both agree that Sin is likely to be top dog again once reaping drops, as they were in season 1). Despite no indication from OP that’s the case
Yet the person I was responding to outright claimed that you have to go Outlaw for m+. If you wanna call that “exaggeration” I mean cool, it’s just straight up wrong in my eyes though
Now if OP had stated that they want to push those higher keys, then it’d be an exaggeration since you can still play Sin to that level but it’s currently harder and the impact of reaping on Outlaws prevalence is also an important factor to consider (which the person I was responding to made no mention of)
So I guess we just have to agree to disagree on the semantics of what constitutes “exaggeration” ![:woman_shrugging:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/woman_shrugging.png?v=6" ":woman_shrugging:")
I believe so yes. Reaping will fall off, outlaw is already slated to be numerically nerfed per blizzard (along with prot warrior). Those two alone CAN push sin back up top. I believe it will but we have to see what the new seasonal affix will be and what the numerical nerfs will be. but my personal assumption will be that sin can retake the tops spot since shroud will always be needed.
I get that. The original poster you responded to made it sound like an absolute. I get why you see that as wrong. He assumed and and stated an absolute but i think he wasn’t complety wrong since the % of rogues outside of 10/11 is heavily favored for outlaw, AND people are blind to the meta so pugging is harder as a sin in 10/11+.
So in the sense of the absolute statement… yea you can play sub even if you wanted. Either way it’s semantics at this point because unless OP comes in here and states what level of keys he wants to do we’re both just gonna go back and forth on it lol.
What I know is If I have to choose between the two, all arguments aside, Im taking DH every time.
I main Rogue as my first character for a long time. It might have a few nifty tricks up its sleeve, but I dont like having to have a pocket healer following me around to keep me on life support.
VDH is one of the best specs in the game as a all around class for both group and solo play.
Wow amazing amazing reply