Sub rogue is completely useless from what i’ve seen
9 Likes
I’m not really sure why the class needs 3 dps specs at all. Coming back for BFA after 11 years off, this is my first encounter with the new spec system. Three just seems to be too many for what the class does. Does any other class have three melee DPS specs?
Spreading the few things rogue does as melee DPS across three is taking too much away from each one. I’d much prefer two. Or two melee specs and one ranged. I wouldn’t be surprised if that happens eventually. My guess is that they haven’t fixed sub because they have no idea how to, and there’s no real niche for it in pve content.
2 Likes
Sub isn’t “useless.” It’s decent in pvp now, but still inferior to Assassination and completely outclassed in pve.
Desperately needs big mechanical changes.
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Yeah, but like, what? What role is it supposed to occupy? We’ve got pseudo combat outlaw rogue, and dagger stabby poison bleed rogue.
What role did it occupy before it sucked? The “good for pvp” role?
It was the CC and Burst spec. Before the Legion rework it was much harder, you had a lot more things to manage and the setup process was longer, but the burst payoff was much higher. It also wasn’t only viable in pvp. It even had its time to shine in raids.
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Outlaw needs to turn into a ranged spec imo then sub can be the aoe cleave spec.
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This was never a problem in Classic when it had 3 unique DPS specs. The entire class needs a rework due to over-pruning, but sub desperately needs a fix as it is dead.
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Yeah, I can’t really remember vanilla/TBC too much after 11 years off, but I remember playing combat sword rogue, stabby dagger positioning still PvE viable rogue, and the third one, which was only ever good for PvP.
But like, they all had poisons. And bleeds. And gouge. And felt like rogues.
I still think it’d be better to just ditch one, make us a 2 DPS spec (that’s plenty. Again. Does any other class have 3 melee DPS specs?) and then roll all the abilities of the removed third one back into the other two.
I’m fundamentally not understanding why a melee DPS spec called “rogue” needs any more than a beefy in-your-face combat style of play and a more stealthy/positiony/assassiny type style of play. CC and burst damage shouldn’t be its own spec. It should be abilities the other specs have.
As I said, I don’t understand the history here, but there’s a limited amount of things that a melee DPS class called “rogue” can conceivably do, and spreading those things across three distinct specs seems to have taken too much individually from each one for the sake of “variety” – and there really isn’t any variety between the three specs when only two of them are currently being played.
2 Likes
Mage: Arcane, Frost, Fire
Hunter: Survival, Beastmaster, Marksman
Warlock: Affliction, Demonology, Destruction
Multiple classes have 3 dps specs. I personally think Demon Hunters got the shaft only being given 2 specs at all. It is lazy and shows how little Blizzard cares. I don’t want them to just take the easy way out and delete Sub Rogues because it’s easier than fixing it.
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Weird thread. Welcome back I guess ? Probably don’t need anymore pruning of anything. Cool thoughts though.
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sin isn’t about stealth; it’s about poisons and bleeds and consistent ticking damage. thematically speaking, you choose your opening and your target and you run at it until it’s dead.
outlaw is about being a dirty brawler who doesn’t need stealth at all, you blind people and shoot people and take on all comers in a swordfight that was never going to be fair in the first place. outlaw is about combat tricks rather than being sneaky.
sub is supposed to be all about stealth and maximizing stealth. it should have the strongest and most varied tools in its opener, it should be about planning and choosing the right moment and resetting the situation with vanish if need be. it should be about short windows of spiky burst damage.
the problem with sub isn’t thematic, it’s the current iteration of its gameplay. it doesn’t play to its thematic strengths. sub rogues should shine in the opener and in dance and right now it doesn’t do that nearly enough.
13 Likes
Yeah
Remove outlaw/combat
Then
#buffsub
Hoping classic does well so they continue on into tbc>>wrath and we can have fun with subtlety again
I’m quite similar. I stopped in wrath and came back right before legion.
The changes were heartbreaking.
And yes the majority of good rogues want to play sub even still.
Some rogues only PvE
And love the prune
But they aren’t rogues
Our roots are built through the subtlety tree
Combat rogues can go play warrior
1 Like
I feel like in 9.0 sub will see sweeping changes.
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Wow, I’m glad you’re not in charge of the game Talath. Delete a specialization because currently its rotation and mechanics don’t work?
Yeah, let’s throw away all that lore and fantasy flavor Subtlety has. In fact, let’s do that and rename ‘Assassination’ to ‘Single Target’ and ‘Outlaw’ to ‘Multi Target’. While we’re at it let’s just change the game to only have spread sheets instead of a world full of characters and stories, because after all, number crunching is all that matters. Let’s get rid of those pesky rpg and video game elements…
Edit: Meant to respond to Talath, not OP.
3 Likes
You might want to re-read the original post. There’s nothing there about deleting a spec.
To paraphrase: It feels like we have only two specs because Subtlety is broken.
1 Like
In the case of pure DPS classes, you could argue that going down to two specs wouldn’t be bad, given that one of the three specs always sucks. In order for it to work, I think you’d have to;
- Split the talents and abilities of the third spec between the remaining two specs.
- Create four talent columns for the remaining two specs.
- Spend more time than normal trying to put the right pieces in the right places.
You could argue that you’d end up with two superior specs at the cost of a spec like Sub that no one currently plays…but people would be ticked off unless those specs are both MUCH better than they currently are. You’d also have a hard time finding consensus on which spec to cut, and finally, does anyone trust the current devs to give you two deep specs with options and synergy that work very well in different facets of the game?
I know I don’t.
The only thing wrong with Sub is it takes too long to kill your targets compared to past expansions. Everyone has some kind of shield, heal, or essence from an old god.
The other problem is everyone has mobility.
In WPVP most fights are about your opponent running for guards, or just plain running. Or the fight lasting long enough that help comes. The other issue in WPVP is our prime targets, for the most part, are not running around solo. You mostly see Pally, DK, DH, and other Rogues. In today’s game, fighting these classes you almost have to save Vanish or chances are you’ll be eating dirt. Which is fine if that’s ok with you. Death means nothing in WOW-I die bunches every day.
I don’t think Blizzard is going to change anything when it comes to damage that would really make a difference. Especially now that players at full health-well geared are not expecting to be killed by a Rogue like in the past. There would be an uproar. (If they have damage or used some CD’s that’s a different story.)
I’m not complaining. I’ve had more fun playing a Sub Rogue in this expansion than any time in the game.
For those who want to change Subtlety tell us the changes. Are the changes geared for Arena so the meta changes to Sub? Are the changes geared to Mythic Raids so you are always picked? Are they geared to Twitch streamers who run in groups destroying players? Do we make changes so Sub wins all the Duels? Are they changes so that Sub is easier to learn for all players?
Last thought, I saw a graph just yesterday that showed Sub right in the middle of Specs being played. (I don’t know how accurate it is.)
It isn’t useless. it’s the burstiest in pvp if played right + plenty of control.
Don’t use the cookie cutter build
Don’t remove anything…Sub is the stealth focused burst build. People got upset getting nuked within a stun so Sub has been held back a few grades. Right now a Lock or Mage can put you down in a few seconds from range so they might as well buff Subs burst back up where it should be for PvP burst spec.
2 Likes
Sub was overtuned for half a minute before people were geared so blizz nerfed it into oblivion. They wont let us do any damage because we have too much cc.
Every spec could be fixed in a week but blizzard doesnt care about balance. I realized this playing hearthstone before I quit. They make clearly overpowered cards, wait 4 months for people to drop money and dust in said op cards,then nerf them and start the cycle over.
Assassination should never have the highest single target dps among rogue specs. Its the braindead spec for people that just want to apply dots and not have to think or pay attention.
Sub rogue should be the most rewarding rogue spec if played well, but its not. Its the least rewarding rogue spec. Nerf cheap shot or something but ffs give us our ******* damage back. Paladins can crit for over 100k in arena…this is supposed to be what sub rogue is for
1 Like