Rogue class fantasy

Classes Rogue
1

Hey guys! I’ve been thinking a lot about different class fantasies in wow, and thought I’d make a post here with my thoughts to see what you guys think!

just wanna preface this that it’s strictly my opinion and obviously I doubt blizz will even consider anything but who knows lol.

For assassin it has been in a very odd spot for me gameplay wise for a long time. I understand it’s the bleed/poison spec in the game, and tbh I think there is def a niche for that type of playstyle that should exist 100%. The issue I have with it is in my mind it just doesn’t fit “assassin” to me. Allow me to explain why, basically what do you guys envision when you think assassin? For me it’s a stealth character that will sneak and stab the target. High amount of damage or insta death and they typically will have poisoned blades in case their original assault fails the target will still probably die. I don’t think in any fantasy or even real life world an assassin would just keep cutting up a target and brawl them til they slowly die lol. I’m not exactly sure how I’d change it tbh if I even would, but it’s just something I’ve thought about for a bit.

Outlaw I think thematically is probably the best for rogue atm. Love the pirate esthetic. Only complaint I’d have for it is gameplay wise I wish outlaw was more Along the lines of agile fighter and what I mean by that is it can’t take the hits head on same as a warrior can, but it’s more of a dodge tank if that makes sense. Outlaw 100% should Be able to survive better than it does currently especially since it’s not as focused on stealth as the other 2.

Subtlety I honestly don’t think blizzard knows what they want to do with it at all. If you were to ask me what I personally would want done with thematically I’d say fully lean into the spell thief type fantasy. Shadow damage and such on abilities is awesome keep it. Them recently trying to get some shadow clones to do extra hits in combat? That’s great! Sub should be the more Magical rogue spec 100%. Up til more recent for me subs just mainly felt like a diff skin for assassin and im glad they are tryin to branch out with it a bit more.

what do yall think? What would you guys like to see changed?

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Assassination used to have hard hitting Mutilates so it was exactly as you described originally.

Outlaw current theme is muddled and no longer a pirate theme like it was in Legion.

I do agree that Sub is everywhere in terms of theme with shadow clones, shadow damage, finishers skewed, ninja abilities, etc.

Personally speaking they need to fix the general class tree which is Rogue first and fix that identity and the rest for specs is easier to address.

:surfing_man: :surfing_woman:

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3

Assassination and Subtlety are kind of confused with one another, thematically. I’ve suggested they be combined in a single spec for a while now. Burst damage coming out of stealth, shadow dance, and a focus on poisons for prolonged combat. That would feel the most “Assassination” to me.

Assassination’s extra thematic element is “bleed damage”. It could easily reconfigure its entire damage-over-time profile to be just poison damage instead, but then the spec would feel flat without “something other than poison”. It’d need the burst too, which Subtlety currently occupies.

But Subtlety can’t just be “high burst” or “just stealth”, so they’ve thrown in some ninjitsu thematic elements and made Subtlety the most “magical” of the three rogue specs. Shadow clones, shadow damage, the works.

Outlaw is the most “pure” of the 3 specs, thematically. It could be “just a swashbuckler” or “just an agile fighter”, but Blizzard has chosen to enrich its class fantasy by adding a “gambler” edge to it. Roll the Bones has had mixed reviews, but the “add something to make it special” thematic choice aligns with what Blizzard is doing for the other 2 specs as well.

So, all in all, while none of WoW’s Rogue specs quite match an “idyllic traditional D&D rogue” class fantasy on their own, they’ve done a pretty good job honoring player expectations while adding their own twist to it. They’ve done that with pretty much every class to varying degrees.

With all that said, I’d still prefer a more traditional “Assassination” (Burst + Stealth + Poison), “Scoundrel” (Combat + RNG Options that aren’t core to the spec), and some ranged/throwing or tank spec as the 3rd/4th.

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I agree with your takes on assassin and outlaw for sure. I’d be ok with like a ranged rogue spec as a 3rd, but I think I’d still be more interested in a magic rogue flavor personally. Either way I’d be fine with either!

5

My personal view is that there needs to be a serious overhall (only one majorly mechanically, the others graphically) if we’re trying to keep anything in any form of themes. The immediate and classical style of “rogue” is Thief, Assassin, Bandit. While we currently have something named assassin, they’re not. Slowly bleeding someone out or using such a weak poison to the point that it’s closer to a paper cut isn’t even close to what one would consider an assassin.

If we extend out the fantasy further to encompass far more archtypes, we get ninja/shinobi, spell thief, swashbuckler/pirate, witchhunter, and outlaw. While we currently have an outlaw, it’s far closer to a pirate than an outlaw as an outlaw is far more classically represented using revolvers in a cowboy-esque setting/build.

First, I would recommend renaming the current outlaw to Swashbuckler (as already recommended). Not much else here needs to be changed to keep it thematically accurate. My personal taste would be moving it closer to MoP Combat, buuuuut I know the people that currently play it like outlaw as it is.

Next with Sub, I would recommend renaming it to Shinobi or something of the nature as it’s trying so hard to be a ninja yet falling closer to “mall ninja”. Extend out the visuals and have certain casts cause player animations that look like the classical ninja stances/movements. I can’t stand how the kit currently operates (As I despise when cooldowns don’t line up properly together), however that’s just me and there’s a ton of people that like it.

Last there’s the “guy who cuts people with a paring knife and coughs on their wounds”. There’s absolutely nothing here that screams “rogue” and feels closer to a melee shadow priest or affliction warlock. This spec is in dire need of identity. I recommended in another thread that if they want the upkeep gameplay with this spec, to actually make it an assassin it should instead be “debuffs” the rogue is applying to the target. One to increase crit chance, one to increase overall damage, and if they want a 3rd, one to stack on extra crit damage for that extra “execute/deadly shot” an assassin should/would have. From here Mutilate and Eviscerate (instead of envenom) would be the main sources of damage. AoE could happen as either a passive or a toggle (call it something like Collateral Damage) where a percentage is shared near the target.

If they wanted to keep the current style of play, I would recommend changing the name to something closer to “Witch Hunter” or “Spell Thief” and changing the animations/damage types to be a bit more in line with these fantasy themes. The slow and methodical approach to damage would work well with a witch hunter as their combat then would be closer to an “interrogation”. So bleeds and some form of a DoT would compliment this well. This also could work with a Spell Thief as the fantasy could be that they’re not quite adept at magic, so they supplement their magical training (or lack there of) with brute force. This would mean that the majority of their “spells” would be burning/hexing the target in some manor (bleeds and poisons), their finisher could actually be a “detonation” type magic, and their building could remain slashing at them with their knives.

Edit: Fixed a sentence where I reiterated something.

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Funny thing. “Spell thief” used to be Sub’s fantasy back in Legion. They were heavy in on shadow damage, clones, and teleports. But people were very critical and didn’t like it back then. Too big of a departure from WoD Sub. Which was basically just Assassination with Shadowdance.

Sub got reworked in BFA into this bastardization of WoD Sub and Legion Sub. Leaning more towards WoD. But with every expansion since, Sub has been getting closer to its Legion iteration. And with Midnight we are pretty much there again. Just missing Nightblade.

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Midnight Sub is pretty far away from the Legion Sub version I would argue. The problem is Nightblade was very strong DoT that you had to maintain because Sub wasn’t doing anything else other than shadowstrikes until the mid expansion rework in Legion.

And even then nightblade was a shadow DoT which really called into question the entire specs design as it was basically a melee version of affliction/shadow priest or an inferior version of Unholy DK.

That is why Sub was changed in BFA because of that reason.

If Sub drifts back to the Legion version it will be quickly reverted because it would be a result of the devs forcing in a shadow dot maintenance that doesn’t fit into the specs profile like what happened in Legion expansion.

:surfing_man: :surfing_woman:

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I think class fantasy was the worst thing that ever happened to class design.

the end

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9

My view on the rogue specs can pretty much be done in bulletin points with what I’d imagine fits into their niches (more so in Roleplay environments).

Outlaw

  • Blade Dancer
  • Highwaymen
  • Pirate
  • Witch Hunter
  • Blackguard

Assassination

  • Poison Specialist
  • Weakness Specialist
  • Knife Savant
  • Elusive
  • Stalker

Subtlety

  • Spell Blade
  • Bleed Specialist
  • Shadow Magic Specialist
  • Mage-Hunter
  • Covert

In terms of stealth potential, I see it as Subtlety > Assassination > Outlaw

Fighting Specialization, Subtlety fairs better with magical opponents, Assa with physical opponents, and Outlaw as the middle ground allrounder.

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10

Rogue specs I’d like to see:

Assassin : the classic stealth stabby stabby. More single target high damage.

Smuggler : pistol happy variant, think Han Solo. Roll the bones: yes but automatic as a passive that rolls by itself during combat. Ranged.

Subtlety: poison/dot focused spec. Mix of close and ranged depending on side of tree and so on.

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why did you swap sin and subs identities??

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So it makes sense?

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but it doesnt tho

subtlety is defined as quiet and out of sight in the english language. thats why its the “Stealth+” spec

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I guess they removed the combat rogue so rogues don’t fight anymore.

Alright then: Combat, Smuggler, Poisoner.

Now very simple to understand what each spec does, are different from one another.

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??? that doesnt make any spec simpler or more understanding

we dont need to reinvent the wheel

assassin is a spec htat uses poisons and death by a thousand cuts. it fits because most assassinations are made to look like accidents and most politcal assassinations use neuro toxins

sub is the stealth spec

outlaw is the gun spec.

smuggler and outlaw are synonyms

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16

we didn’t need to reinvent the wheel for combat into outlaw. yet here we are. sad pandas.

but yeah I feel like a a lot of people don’t realize the history of each spec and how Sin adopted the poisoner/extended energy from classic days, into the mutilate bleeder later in life. a lot of people dont remember that Sub used to be about keeping rupture and Hemorrhage up on the target while you slam ambushes during your dance windows. and you spam backstab all day.

:ninja:

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17

I get what you mean about assassination but at this point it is what it is. Sub is more along the lines of the ambush assassin or ninja assassin.

My problem with rogue fantasy is the toolkit. They really need more tools that fit the various fantasies and also contribute to utility or support. I think smoke bomb is the most obvious spell to add to PvE. I feel like every stealth class always has some kind of smoke bomb. Make it a group damage reduction, change the los mechanic (can add that part to PvP talents if needed) if you need to, just make it effective and on a shorter cooldown.

Every class should bring support or utility to a group. Some classes do that with buffs or heals. Rogues should do that via mob control and debuffs. But right now they bring basically nothing. 3.5% damage reduction might be good on paper but it is so boring and unnoticeable when playing.

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18

That’s why I’m here.

19

Alright, really the outlaw should be based on other classes, specs. yeah. You’d have the ability copy allies and enemies, NPCs perhaps. And be an illusion of that character. You get different abilities based on who/what you copy. Basically one-sided symbiosis from cata on steroids.

Thing is that’s really complex and people would dislike it. However the people who like it would probably love it. So maybe it’s worth doing.

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smoke bomb was one of the best utility buttons ill never understand why they changed it to a pvp button. but its hilarious because they basically took it away from rogues just to give it to demon hunters via darkness. its basically the same thing. but back in the day you could chain smoke bombs and i guess blizzard doesnt like more than 1 rogue in a raid group setting. or being able to chain damage reduction.

:ninja:

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