Rogue & Assassination Suggestion

Classes Rogue
1

We can all agree that Rogues are struggling now more than ever, there are many players switching classes daily, they are not well liked for M+, raids etc.

Here are some suggestions I have which would benefit the general Rogue talents, and the Assassination talents.

Please feel free to provide your suggestions for Sub and Outlaw specs below.

Energy in General

From WoW 2004-2024, Rogue energy regeneration has not changed, it has remained 10 Energy per second since Rogues existence, this must change as the class itself has significantly changed, there is no reason that all 3 specs should have the same energy regeneration range as one another as each spec manages energy differently, and each have different energy costs for their abilities.

Energy Cost Changes:

The following are ability energy cost suggestions to be adjusted to align with their overall damage output, a logical take:

  • Ambush: Reduced from 50 to 40 Energy.
  • Mutilate: Reduced from 50 to 30 Energy.
  • Rupture: Reduced from 25 to 20 Energy.
  • Garrote: Reduced from 45 to 20 Energy.
  • Envenom: Increased from 35 to 40 Energy.
  • Gouge: Reduced from 25 to 20 Energy.
  • Cheap Shot: Reduced from 32 to 20 Energy.
  • Fan of Knives: Reduced from 35 to 25 Energy.
  • Crimson Tempest: Reduced from 45 to 40 Energy.
  • Kingsbane: Reduced from 35 to 20 Energy.
  • Feint: Reduced from 25 to 10 Energy.
  • Poisoned Knife: Reduced from 40 to 10 Energy.

Logic Behind Energy Adjustments:

The above energy reductions are designed to make Rogue abilities more usable and aligned with their damage output. For example, if Mutilate costs 50 Energy for 70,000 damage, it makes no sense for Poisoned Knife to cost 40 Energy while dealing only 17,000 damage. The goal is to scale energy costs relative to each ability’s effectiveness, ensuring fair and balanced gameplay across the board.

1. General Rogue Talent Changes

Changes to Vigor Current

Rank 2/2
Passive
Increases your maximum Energy by 100 and Energy regeneration by 10%.

Proposed Change:

Rank 2/2
Passive
Increases your maximum Energy by 100 and Energy regeneration by 10 per second.

Changes to Thistle Tea based on 11.0.5

Rank 1/1
Instant 1 min recharge
3 Charges
Restore 100 Energy. Mastery increased by 13.6%
Thistle Tea now automatically drinks when Energy falls below 30

Proposed Change:

Rank 1/1
Instant 30 sec recharge
2 Charges
Restore 100 Energy over 3 seconds. Mastery increased by 13.6%
Thistle Tea now automatically drinks when Energy falls below 30

Talent re-positioning

  • Swap Unbreakable Stride Talent position with Subterfuge
  • Swap Shadowheart Talent position with Soothing Darkness
  • Swap Tricks of the Trade with Without a Trace

Cloak of Shadows
Reduce cooldown from 2 min to 1 min.

2. Changes to Deathstalker

Deathstalker’s Mark Current

Passive
Ambush/Shadowstrike from Stealth applies 3 stacks of Deathstalker’s Mark to your target. When you spend 5 or more combo points on attacks against a Marked target you consume an application of Deathstalker’s Mark, dealing (120% of Attack power) Plague damage and increasing the damage of your next Ambush or Mutilate by 50%.
You may only have one target Marked at a time.

Proposed Change:

Passive
Deathstalker’s Mark (Revised):

Ambush/Mutilate or Shadowstrike/Backstab apply 1 stack of Deathstalker’s Mark to your target (up to 3 stacks). Each stack increases your Plague damage dealt to the target by X% (scaling with Attack Power). When you spend 5 or more combo points on attacks against a Marked target, you consume all stacks of Deathstalker’s Mark, dealing (Y% of Attack power) Plague damage and increasing the critical strike chance of your next Ambush or Mutilate by 50%.

Passive Effect: Each target can hold up to 3 stacks of Deathstalker’s Mark at a time, and you may mark multiple targets.

Bonus: Killing a Marked target grants 5 Energy for each stack of Deathstalker’s Mark consumed upon death.

Darkest Night Current

Passive
When you consume the final Deathstalker’s Mark from a target or your target dies, gain 40 Energy and your next Envenom cast with maximum combo points is guaranteed to critically strike, deals 60% additional damage, and applies 3 stacks of Deathstalker’s Mark to the target.

Proposed Change:

Passive
When you consume the final stack of Deathstalker’s Mark or your target dies, gain 40 Energy and enter the Darkest Night state for 10 seconds.

During Darkest Night, your next Envenom with maximum combo points is guaranteed to critically strike and deals an additional 60% Plague damage over 6 seconds.

Bonus: While in Darkest Night, each critical strike with Ambush, Mutilate, or Envenom applies 1 stack of Deathstalker’s Mark to your target (up to 5 stacks). Critical strikes from abilities extend the duration of Darkest Night by 1 second.

3. Assassination Rogue Talent Changes

Venomous Wounds Current

You regain 8 Energy each time your Garrote or Rupture deal Bleed damage to a poisoned target.

If an enemy dies while afflicted by your Rupture, you regain energy based on its remaining duration.

Proposed Change:

You regain 10 Energy each time your Garrote or Rupture deal Bleed damage to a poisoned target.

If an enemy dies while afflicted by your Rupture, you regain energy based on its remaining duration.

4. Assassination Abilities

Deathmark
Make instant. but is no longer on Global Cooldown

5 Likes
2

i disagree with the solution of giving asn rogues more energy regen baseline- it’s not elegant enough. it would solve ALL the energy regen problems, yes, but at what cost?

energy recovery from using our abilities feels the best. we just need more return for our efforts.
being able to spam our abilities is attractive gameplay, but what makes rogue fun is learning and understanding how we should spend our energy at any given moment. i want to preserve that.

maybe a cost reduction to some abilities is a good idea, but i feel it would be better if we had a passive talent like relentless strikes to help us out with energy issues, as it would entice us to spend energy on finishing moves to regain energy, while still giving us the task of managing our energy wisely.

i don’t understand what you mean here.

3

I understand your concern about increasing baseline Energy regeneration for Assassination Rogues, but I’d like to explain why this approach is more effective and aligned with the overall gameplay experience, especially in the current content.

While your idea of focusing on cost reduction and passive energy returns is valid, I believe that a baseline Energy regeneration increase is a more elegant and consistent solution for Rogue currently. It allows for more dynamic combat, reduces downtime, and enables smoother rotations across various content without removing the skillful management of resources that defines Rogue gameplay.

1. Energy Regeneration vs. Ability Usage

You mention that energy recovery from abilities feels the best and that spamming abilities isn’t what makes Rogue fun. While I agree that energy management is a core Rogue mechanic, the problem today is that energy starvation can become frustrating rather than rewarding. In Mythic+, high-pressure raid encounters, and even PvP, Rogues are often left waiting on energy, which kills the flow and makes us less competitive.

  • Increased baseline Energy regeneration doesn’t diminish the need for intelligent energy management. It simply helps alleviate those downtime periods where we’re sitting idle because of poor energy availability.
  • Having more energy at baseline allows us to use our core abilities without feeling overly restricted. We still need to choose when to burst and how to optimize, but the overall combat flow becomes smoother.

The current flow often feels like we are punished for wanting to engage with our abilities. Increasing energy regeneration gives us the flexibility to actively play and engage in meaningful decisions without sacrificing the class identity. Managing resource generation vs. resource expenditure is still a core part of the rotation.

2. Cost Reduction vs. Energy Generation

You proposed reducing ability costs or adding a passive like Relentless Strikes. While I agree that these can help, they only solve part of the problem.

  • Cost reductions may work in some areas but risk unbalancing the rotation, making certain abilities feel spammy. Reducing the cost of key abilities too much removes the need to manage energy altogether.
  • A passive energy return mechanic (like Relentless Strikes) can help, but it forces us to rely heavily on finishers, which limits flexibility and creates a cycle where we’re constantly forced into specific rotations for energy gains. My proposal gives Rogues more control over their rotation without feeling tied to a single mechanic for energy restoration.

Additionally, by focusing purely on finisher-related energy regen, we risk making non-finisher actions feel weak or limiting our flexibility in both AoE and single-target encounters. My solution provides a more consistent energy flow across various combat situations.

3. Sustained Pressure vs. Burst Windows

One of the current issues is that Assassination Rogues often feel stuck between burst windows. If our Energy generation is too low, we’re forced to wait, which diminishes our ability to maintain sustained pressure. Higher baseline Energy regen allows for more consistent damage output across the fight, making us more competitive in both single-target and AoE situations without feeling like we’re constantly energy starved.

4. Clarification on Deathmark Change

Regarding Deathmark, making it instant and removing it from the Global Cooldown (GCD) means that it can be cast without delaying your other abilities, similarly to Subtlety and Shadow Blades. The intention here is to make Deathmark feel more fluid and responsive, allowing for better burst windows and reducing the clunkiness of pressing it in a high-paced situation. When Deathmark is on the GCD, it can delay key abilities like Envenom or Rupture, disrupting our burst and overall damage flow. By removing it from the GCD, we can smoothly integrate it into the rotation without sacrificing a global for our core finishers.

4

My mom told me not to say anything if I can’t say something nice.

I’m not quite there yet, but I’m improving…

5

Man is actually entirely correct with this post. I’ve already spoken ahout how Relentless Strikes would not fix a spec like Sin.

Also mfw Kingsbane also costs energy. Like why? Who else spends resources to use major CDs?

3 Likes
6

Provide feedback and suggestions on absolutely everything you would change to make Rogues in general and Assassination better.

7

Post history my dude. Use it.

8

Man, I’ve been talking about Relentless strikes since Legion completely ruined Assassination spec. I knew it since i have played Legion Alpha, that by removing relentless strikes and nerfing Venomous Wounds, Assassination will have energy issues.

And now look: It has been already 8 years since this terrible change and Assassination still has the same energy issues, as If the rogue devs have absolutely no clue what they’re doing with class design.

Before Legion, there was no issues with energy like that and we didnt need the obsolete Thistle Tea.

1 Like
9

I like thistle tea personally. I don’t think energy is as bad as most say. It’s not good. But it’s more nuanced. We swim in energy in short fights / aoe fights. And then struggle hard as it goes longer and longer or fewer targets.

Having a big energy pool, sanguine blades, and tea makes managing energy and resources feel like something worth paying attention to rather than just something holding you back from spam spam spam.

I do think they need a way to even out our resource issues in PvE and specifically ST longer fights, but I’m also worried about any buffs that are too broad. Assassin already kills it in BG’s right now as is…and everyone knows the story. PvE and PvP balancing just screw everything up.

Sins in a good spot in PvP, but needs help in PvE. But if they finally get to a good spot in PvE, I fully expect us to then shortly get a nerf based on our PVP performance shortly after. Blizz rarely seems to make proper use of PVP or PVE specific scaling.

10

So lets say you use Thistle Tea with your opener, you are content with it giving you 100
energy instantly, instead of over 3 to 4 seconds, if it were 4 then you get an extra 25 per second which would meld better with your rotation without having wasted all the energy gains for the mastery buff as the alternative.

11

Why are you using tea when you have full energy just for a 13.5% mastery buff?

I’d rather use when you can benefit from the full 100 energy instantly than take your suggestion. Using it in the opener doesn’t make much sense to me, I don’t know why that’s a goal of weakening the energy recovery aspect and delaying it over time.

12

Because after Kingsbane got neutered that’s how you squeeze some more damage out of it.
Not that the tuning wasn’t necessary because Assa damage profile was just stupid but still.

13

I know how to squeeze damage out of kingsbane. But again…in what world are you opening up with full energy and immediately needing Kingsbane with 13.5% more damage?

The suggestion being made here is that having Thistle tea go from giving 100 energy and 13.5% mastery instantly to giving 100 energy over 3 seconds.

It’s being argued that popping tea would be better if you didn’t overcap on the energy for the buff…

But why would you not just open with a real opener, get someone low, and actually use Tea when you can benefit from the 100 energy AND mastery when the KB is actually gonna land the kill.

Opening with KB out of stealth on full energy for a 13.5% juicier suprise kingsbane? I cant tell if this is serious… :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

14

What are you even talking about. It’s for the Deathmark window because the 13.5% mastery actually makes a lot of diifference there.
Your opener is apply deathstalker mark, apply bleeds, snd, envenom, deathmark, shiv, kingsbane and you use the tea for kingsbane as applicable because then it will actually max it’s damage.
In 2024 by “opener” people do not mean pressing ambush out of stealth they mean the initial sequence of abilities you use to maximise your damage for lust+pot. And every class and spec has it’s own opener as well.

15

What are you confused about? I’m referring very specifically to this;

"So lets say you use Thistle Tea with your opener, you are content with it giving you 100
energy instantly, instead of over 3 to 4 seconds, if it were 4 then you get an extra 25 per second which would meld better with your rotation without having wasted all the energy gains for the mastery buff as the alternative."

I think the suggestion is…bad. Slowing down the energy recovery provides no benefit.
The argument being made is you are “wasting energy for the mastery buff,” with the recovery rate. I think this indicates people using is inefficiently. What are you confused about?

16

As an Assassination Rogue and only plays that this season daily both raiding and PvP, it’s common for players to macro Thistle Tea with Deathmark for their opener, or at least use it for the damage bonus off the bat which helps us break and sustain over 1 million DPS.

Common opener in raids:

Ambush to apply Deathstalker’s Mark > Garrote > Rupture > S&D > Deathmark with Thistle Tea > Kingsbane > Echo > Mutilate > Envenom. etc.

Though I’ve come to the conclusion that reducing ability energy cost is not a good solution just as increasing the energy pool wasn’t a good solution either. The best solution at this moment is to increase energy regen in general to resolve most issues with Rogues (20 per second instead of 10 as a base). It’s also a simpler solution.

Such as Vigor should just give +10 energy per second instead of +100 to the energy pool. And our max energy would then be 200 instead of 300 with proper sustainability.

Thistle Tea on its own is and could be better, but having it give 100 energy immediately is terrible especially when it provides a damage buff you are encouraged to use it regardless of the energy regen, as such, it needs to give energy over a period of time to prevent spill over and loss of the energy regen benefit.

17

I personally think they should give Relentless Strikes back to all specs and see what happens first, then adjust the regen or costs if it’s still not great.
Energy returns on finishers would already do a lot and put them sort of on par with other classes’ spenders.
Overall a major rebalance of how Rogue resources work would be nice but I don’t think Blizzard is going to ever bother with something in-depth or something that requires more testing and tuning.

2 Likes
18

The suggestion as it stands sounds like you want to remove all potential to use it inefficiently. It should just always be a good idea to use for damage, regardless of really considering your energy economy.

I think it should be the instant 100 full energy…which is the entire point of the original item its based off of. Not a damage boost you pop in inopportune times and then complain about only receiving partial effectiveness.

Like Esann says, Relentless strikes is a way better idea anyways, imho.

19

Whether it’s base energy regen, or being refunded energy from Relentless Strikes (5 per combo point spent) being given to all Rogue specs, we can all agree at this point that Rogues are energy starved in this expansion and these issues need to be addressed.

1 Like
20

1min cd cloak? No thanks