Ah I think I understand what the difference is in our perspectives.
I didn’t play Classic, but I’ve been interested in the Forsaken since I played Warcraft 3 - I believe I played it in 2006, not as soon as it was released. I’m 25 irl, so I was quite young when Classic was a thing xD
But ever since Warcraft 3 lore I’ve been a fan of the Forsaken, but I’ve actually disliked the TOTAL villainy of them as a faction. I understood why many of the Forsaken would become bitter and twisted by their experiences - I never understood why ALL of them would be. Why would the humans of Lordaeron all become unrepentantly evil moustache-twirling villains? In my mind they had the potential to be so much more nuanced than that - the evil and bitter side of the Forsaken 100% had its place… but what about those who have family on the other side? What about those who want peace, or who view Undeath as a second chance to do some good? I always thought the introduction of this sort of thing would make the Forsaken more interesting, not less. And so I’ve always RPed Sarestha here as a Lordaeronian first and foremost - seeing Sylvanas as the hero who freed her peoples wills and would rebuild her nation, but still somehow believing that the Light, and the human past, actually mattered. In Sarestha’s mind, she’s still a Paladin of Lordaeron. She can just never physically represent that again.
So I think that’s how our perspectives have differed I suspect, and why I’m actually THRILLED with Before the Storm, and I’m a fan of Calia as a character (though I’d only ever accept her as a Horde leader - Sarestha will never join the Alliance again, and I don’t see why many Forsaken would want to.) In my head it added the nuance to the Forsaken of Lordaeron that I’d been really craving. We’re just coming at the race from two different angles xD
I agree with this. The exciting part, in my mind, is that most Forsaken had no idea. Until really recently I’ve always RPed Sarestha as 100% unironically believing Sylvanas to be a benevolent, heroic leader. That’s been a fun warped perspective to have!
I think Forsaken being the Forsaken is one of the few things about this xpac that still makes sense. They have never really taken pains to hide who and what they are.
So I have to agree, someone like Calia Menethil coming in out of nowhere to make them fluffy and Light-touched would be a terrible direction.
Frankly I believe the Forsaken story can only get better with Sylvanas gone. I feel like she does nothing but hold them back because any time there is any Forsaken story it has to be about Sylvanas… who isn’t even from Lordaeron. I don’t know, I just think the Forsaken story will actually get interesting once she is out of the picture, I really enjoyed the idea of the Desolate Council and would like to see more characters like that get explored.
Having said that I am also not a huge fan of Calia becoming the leader of the Forsaken, that just feels kind of forced at this point.
As much as I loved Calia in the book, I do admit that this is a concern - in terms of Calia coming out of nowhere. If she had been in the book AND represented in the game outside of the Netherlight Temple story, I’d have been okay with it. But at this rate, when there’s no sign of her even in 8.2, I’m a bit worried with how they’d bring it about. If she pops up in 8.3 and just becomes Queen all of a sudden, that’d feel really forced.
That said, I have hope they can pull it off. I’m naive maybe, but I believe in Blizzard - I reckon it’ll be a fun resolution.
The problem is that Sylvanas basically is the Forsaken. For over a decade of the game’s history she has been the main source of the races image and identity, I’d even go as far to say that she had defined it as early as WC3.
Without Sylvanas, who do the Forsaken have? Nathanos is barely notable for anything other than being an annoying yes man Sylvanas-lite, Lillian Voss had to be basically rewritten to fit in with the Forsaken in BfA, and Calia is… ugh. There’s no one of note, no one of the same appeal and gravitas and importance to the franchise as Sylvanas that could be the new face of the Forsaken. That she isn’t from Lordaeron doesn’t matter in the slightest bit. The Forsaken are the legacy of Arthas, and Sylvanas represents that legacy far better than literally any other undead character in the game, as the most prolific and developed of his victims in the franchise.
Without Sylvanas the Forsaken will only get worse in their representation or development. It’s the same issue that fell on Orcs after Garrosh was ousted and Thrall was retired, they didn’t have anyone notable after MoP who could steer them out of irrelevance who wasn’t a minor or meme character. With the absolutely abysmal direction Blizzard seems intent on taking them, they’ll either suffer from the same irrelevant villain status that the Orcs did in WoD, or they’ll be remade into something more appealing to the “good guys” of Azeroth, which sorta defeats the entire purpose of the race imo as I outlined before, and just feels bad because I don’t personally believe that the Forsaken should feel a need for redemption in any way at all, in spite of what they’ve done. Redemption just doesn’t look as good on them as stubbornly existing in spite of what others think does imo.
As far as Sylvanas not caring goes, I’m sure that’s how Blizzard wants people to see her now. But before the now, it was always weird. Before Cata we didn’t really have much other than that we knew the Forsaken were loyal to her and that everyone involved was down to do whatever it took to kill Arthas. Then we get to EoN with the whole “arrow in the quiver” nonsense that then goes into Cata questing where the first thing we see of Sylvanas is her commanding from the front lines in Silverpine to lead the charge for the Forsaken to finally carve out a kingdom of their own, instead of hiding behind them like what you would expect from someone who supposedly doesn’t care for them at all, and doing things like having the PC gather items of fallen Forsaken so that they can be honored and remembered, as if Sylvanas does actually care for them. It’s a wishy washy sort of approach that Blizzard has always had with Sylvanas and I utterly detest it.
Does anyone else remember that Calia didn’t come out of nowhere, and was present in Legion? o.O I keep seeing that she was a play out of left field, but they definitely set her up to have story significance as of Legion’s launch.
She was only ever present as a side character for the Priest campaign, I barely remembered she was a part of it by the end of Legion before BtS came out.
I think when many people say she is out of left field they mean her showing up as a Lightforged Undead. That is definitely going to out of left field and feel weird if she ends up leading the Forsaken.
I have to disagree. If you consider the themes of Anduin pondering the “morality” of undeath, and whether or not it brings evil inherently, or if the undead can truly be good, throughout Before the Storm, the entire book was setting that up in minor ways.
How many times in that book did they discuss the relationship between the undead and the Light? And the validity of the undead as thinking, feeling beings? This was especially personified through Alonsus Faol, who is basically Good Incarnate, both in life and death. And he was even the one to Lightforge her.
It’s a massive shift from what undead have been until now, but I really don’t consider it a butt-pull the way many seem to.
It’s all perspective I reckon. I mean I see it as the fulfillment of all the Forsaken should have been, and are. That may because I officially started in Cataclysm, where the Forsaken were painted a bit more as the people of Lordaeron, fighting for their rightful home. Sure, they did so dubiously, but… It seemed like a hell of a lot more than them just being the bad guys. Before the Storm really pointed out the diversity in Forsaken ranks, which as an RPer, I absolutely love.
As for Calia - look, I like her a lot. Her character in the book was really interesting to me. Whether I want her as Queen… I’m thinking yes, but Blizz better get their finger out and make her relevant to the Forsaken sooner rather than later.
Oh sorry, I really should have been more clear. I meant out of left field for the majority of players who haven’t read Before the Storm. Which is probably a big portion of the playerbase. I should have stated that before, but I am tired.
The fact that her part was so minor and fleeting that she is so easily overlooked should be a concern. I think even Lilian Voss was more memorable.
Also a concern. And a solid reason why they need to stop releasing relevant story information behind novels many people won’t read, and keep it in game where it belongs.
hot take: much like the orcs, the devs obsession with portraying the forsaken as an unstoppable, invincible war machine that only ever suffers minor setbacks, not defeats, has hampered their development pretty severely and locked them into being evil monsters to the point that the idea that they could be anything less feels fundamentally wrong and disproven by any and all previous actions taken by the forsaken as a whole
Yeah, but that’s kind of the problem with Blizzard’s tried and true tropes that they can’t ever break out of.
Bad Guys Act, Good Guys React.
The Horde is currently unstoppable and aggressive because they’re the Bad Guy faction this time around. We can argue about it as much as we want, but it won’t change the fact that the Horde is basically doing everything the Legion did, right down to corrupting their former enemies into fighting for them.
So the Forsaken get to be thrown away as soon as the faction war is over. Sad.
Blizzard, or rather those at Blizzard making these decisions, are not capable of the complexity and nuance required for a faction war to be at the forefront of a hard two faction game where both are neither good nor evil.
They never have been, they never will be. Blizzard shines when they tell big overt power high fantasy where the unabashed good guys triumph over the unambiguous evil guys.
Warcraft has been, and always will be the big blockbuster popcorn IP. Theres nothing wrong with that, but it becomes cringe inducing, poorly written nonsense when they suddenly try to be anything different.
This is the issue with this expansion where the Horde was a part of the genocide of the Night Elves and we all know they are just going to get a slap on the wrist for it once Sylvanas is removed from the equation.
Now I am not trying to say that Horde players need to be punished for choosing their faction because really they had no say in the matter and just have to go with what Blizzard writes for the Horde. However, in the story/lore of the game there SHOULD be massive punishment to the Horde after what it did. This is like the third time the Horde has just started a war for reasons.
If there aren’t going to be any consequences, then Blizzard shouldn’t write the faction war the way they do. As it stands now, like I said above, the Horde is going to get a slap on the wrist for what it did and nothing more, which frankly isn’t fair to the Alliance, especially the Night Elves.
People will say “they did good showing both sides in Warcraft!” Except that 1 and 2 were hardline Horde Evil/Alliance Good. 3 was well done, but they also weren’t fighting each other, which is where the problem comes in.
It would be very difficult to write a story where you can feel for both sides of a conflict. The entirety of both sides. Not a small splinter group in one side who isn’t horrible, which seems to be what they’re going with. “The Horde isn’t evil, look at these 4 people who oppose Sylvanas!” Okay and I’m glad to see someone does, but the Horde is an empire. You’re showing people I can count on one hand as possessing empathy and expect me to feel for the entire Horde.
Oof I went off on a tangent there. My point was that a two-sided conflict where you can consider both sides good is tricky, and definitely not something at home in a video game. An MMO anyway.