Rise of Azshara Story Discussion (SPOILERS)

Considering one of the primary abilities of Banshees is their ability to possess the living, this is an entirely possible mechanic.

Hell, where do the Dark Rangers get their bodies from, I wonder?

Deaders R’ Us, the store that Sylvanas gets all her dead people from. Low prices, no questions asked, open 24/7.

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Sylvanas can apparently fly now, raise non-human undead and enslave them immediately, so I’m pretty sure she just makes up powers as she goes.

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I was about to say they can’t just possess any body they want, it has to be a dead one.

I have the nagging feeling Blizzard is going to pull some bullplop where Sylvanas is just about to get killed, but she jumps out of her body which she is just possessing, so her body gets destroyed and she will be in her true Banshee form and survive.

Phase 3 of Sylvanas boss fight: Sylvanas loudly screams she has invincible wizard armor, that nothing can damage.

It’s at this point that the adventurers realize she’s just a demented corpse with little-to-no awareness of herself or her surroundings, and the Horde has just been uncomfortable bringing it up with her.

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Phase 4 of the Sylvanas fight is her doing air karate moves and making sound effects with her mouth while everyone stands around awkwardly.

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Phase 5 of the Sylvanas fight she power slides right into Lightforge Arthas’ sword recreating how she died and became a Banshee, only this time she gets Lightforged.

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Phase 6 of the Sylvanas fight is you have to argue with her online whether Teldrassil was genocide or not.

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Oh god, so you mean the fight never really ends?!

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You have to get her to the point where she angrily says “whatever I’m done here” and leaves and then you have to kill time until she comes back to have another last word.

Which starts phase 7…

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Scarily, that’s not true, at least by Warcraft 3 lore. Banshees can posess the living. It just seems to alter their mindset rather than completely seize control of their consciousness though. I guess it just adds another voice in the head, which would explain why they choose to posess their own, otherwise unoccupied bodies, typically.

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Also, in Icecrown, that banshee possess that vrykul witch.

That’s a challenge if I’ve ever seen one.

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New topic but one thing I’m glad about is that we now know what the naga were up to in Azsuna. It was really unclear what they were actually up to - nobody seemed to know if they were helping the Legion again or why they were there. I’m really glad to see this happen, though I’m curious as to how the naga actually ended up getting the tidestone, given that we won it in Legion. Have they broken into Dalaran perhaps?

If there was anything that would make me, a Forsaken fan since Vanilla, hate the Forsaken more than any other race, it would be 120% this.

Calia should be kept as far away from the Forsaken as possible. No need to go polluting their narrative anymore, especially after the absolute butchery Before the Storm did, not to mention what BfA has done and what losing Sylvanas will do to them.

Maybe we’ll get lucky and Blizzard keeps Calia far away from the Forsaken as a whole, but I have little to no hope left for Blizzard’s plans for my favorite race.

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We’ve spoken before about Messiah Characters like Thrall, Malfurion and Tirion–characters who are allegedly “above” the faction warfare and concerned with greater things like nature and the Light. All of which is a supremely convenient reason to keep them from acting during actual times of stress.

But they serve another function: they redeem their respective races.

Like, Orcs have, by now, done way more harm than good to Azeroth and WoD pretty much proved that they’ve always been keen on genocide, even without demon juice. But Thrall serves an important role by being the redeemer, and by showing up and saying “come on, guys, we talked about it” and then all the Orcs go “oh, right, my bad” until he turns his back again and they forget not to commit genocide.

Now, with that in mind, how do we move on in a post-Sylvanas world? Given that the Forsaken are about as bad as Orcs at this point, it would take a lot of story, effort and character-building to answer that question. But the story of the Forsaken, now homeless and shamed for their role in the atrocities, figuring out how they fit into this new world they tried to destroy, could be one of the most amazing character development moments in WoW’s history…

but that’s too much effort, so instead Calia is just going to show up, say “boom, the Forsaken are good now,” and we’ll all move on.

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As a long term Forsaken fan myself (although I suspect a possible point of difference is the fact that I’m a fan of Lordaeron as a whole, with the Forsaken as my favourite extension of that), I’m curious as to your reasoning here.

I personally loved Before the Storm - I think it enabled us to look into the more “human” side of the Forsaken - the side that remembered and genuinely missed their old lives, and wanted to reconnect with the people from their past - even though in many cases, said people are the reason they became “Forsaken” in the first place.

I also loved Calia’s representation in the novel - the Lordaeronian Princess who gradually came to see that it was the Forsaken she was meant to serve - that the undead Lordaeronians were still very much her people (Though I must admit I think her actions at Arathi were idiotic at best).

With all that in mind though, I’m actually quite excited for the possible direction the Forsaken may take - one where they begin to let go of the whole vengeance thing, and seek to build Lordaeron anew.

I’m not criticising your perspective, incidentally. We have our reasons for the way we see the story - and you’re entitled to yours. I’m just curious, as one Forsaken to another, what makes you take this very hardline stance, where these changes may end up making you “hate” the Forsaken race?

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I tried to be short but failed, so it’s kinda ramble-ish.

Because the Forsaken are so much more than just Lordaeron and the Menethils. Imo the Forsaken, since Vanilla, have been pretty much defined by their embrace of darkness in the face of extinction, and the willingness to go to any lengths to further their goals. They’re the Sith Empire of WoW and appeal to me and many others for the same reasons that the Sith Empire does: unapologetic and dark protagonist factions are just fun.

Calia is many things that the Forsaken simply aren’t and have never been since WoW started. She’s embraced by the Light, whereas the Forsaken are shunned and burned by the Light. She’s Alliance of all things, when most of the Forsaken’s history in WoW has been in direct opposition of the Alliance, and having an Alliance character lead one of the core, vanilla Horde races leaves such a bad taste in my mouth that throwing up would taste like a warm cup of coffee to me. And she’s just way too good, where the Forsaken by and large (nearly every character besides a few exceptions) have been portrayed as either jaded, dismissive, and largely apathetic; or maniacal, scheming, and insane. It’s like making a Jedi the new Emperor of the Sith Empire, it just misses the entire point and pollutes the appeal.

Sylvanas’ speech at Hallow’s End sums it up quite nicely imo:

Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: Children of the grave, heed my call!

Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: In life, we suffered unspeakable tragedies.

Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: We watched as our homes were razed to the ground.

Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: We cried out in agony as our families were cut down before our eyes.

Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: Finally, in the face of such atrocities, we were denied even the release of death.

Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: Now, we burn this wickerman as a symbol of our victory against old enemies!

Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: We paint our faces with the ash to send a message to new enemies - a declaration to those who fear and revile us as monsters.

Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: To those who would question our place in this world…

Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: We are NOT monsters! We are NOT the mindless wretches of a ghoul army!

Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: No… we are a force even more terrifying…

Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: We are the chill in a coward’s spine…

Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: We are the instruments of an unyielding ire…

Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: WE ARE THE FORSAKEN!!!

Without this, the Forsaken aren’t the Forsaken. Under Calia, assuming the worst case scenario of Calia “redeeming” the Forsaken, they’re just a dark race stripped of both their bite and their bark for no other purpose than to make them “good” and acceptable to people who didn’t like them in the first place, which misses the entire point of the Forsaken since Vanilla.

Before the Storm is a whole other topic. Suffice it to say that I vehemently hate the portrayal of Sylvanas’ rule as a totalitarian, thought policing and book burning nation that suppresses the past and discourages its populace from remembering it. It serves little to no purpose other than to just contribute to propping up Sylvanas as this big bad antagonist for everyone to hate after 14 years of literally nothing like that being presented in game since this game started, which is the medium and time that such a cultural development should have been made clear. The entire book comes off as Blizzard trying to manipulate me into liking who they think I should like and disliking who they want me to dislike in spite of everything else they’ve shown me in this game. It absolutely destroyed the Forsaken in nearly every way, shape, and form by just making them nothing more than sad victims of Sylvanas waiting for Golden Boy Anduin to swoop in and save them from the mean Banshee (despite her being the one who saved them from mindlessness, unified them into a state, led and defended them, served as the foundation for the entire race since WC3, etc. etc.)

In short, Calia is not Forsaken. She belongs to the Alliance, has gone through none of the struggles, and holds none of the personality that makes the Forsaken, the Forsaken. Having her lead and shape them into a reflection of herself ruins the Forsaken for the sake of making them good guys, which is completely the opposite of what they should be and have always been.

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To me, Sylvanas has always been like this. She’s the big boss now, so she doesn’t have to pretend as much to legitimately care about the Forsaken. They are a means to an end. They are her shield and what she can hide behind. They are her loyal, fanatical followers who will give themselves body and soul to her command.

In the past, her “protection” of the Forsaken against Garrosh and the orcs, for example, was just a way to preserve her own life and goals. The Forsaken are tools for her and she just loves keeping a firm grip on her favorite tool.

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Best Comment Award 2019.

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