Rip the dream

[Raigor-turalyon]

Just remember, the Vanilla Server people spent ~11 years being told “No” and even “You think you do but you don’t” before finally getting through. Hopefully it wont take 11 years but being persistent and never giving up hope is the key!

I feel like the “You think you do but you don’t” quote held true for arguably most people who went back and tried Classic. Sure, a niche is going to love it forever because some people have been playing Vanilla on private servers since TBC, basically (or whenever the privs started). For a lot of people though, Classic wasn’t anything like they thought they remembered.

People have given plenty of good reasons, as good of a reason as the people wanting Dual Wield vs Two-Hander for Monk and DK or SMF vs TG for Fury Warrior.

The thing all of those classes have in common is that each can already wield the weapon types they want in other specs. Adding Shaman to 2Hers adds another layer of loot conflict that they seemingly want to avoid.

The thing is a lot of anti-Two-Hander people here dismiss anyone’s reasoning because they personally do not LIKE the idea. Which, fair enough, people have the right to not like something but those who want this have given plenty of reasons, they just get dismissed and then the people dismissing them turn around and say “They have not given a reason why they want it back!”

I listed a total of three reasons, you target one and say “No, that’s not a reason because I say its not”

I honestly don’t count 3 reasons, but I’m going to try.

1. “Because another class gets it” has never, ever been a valid reason for anything relating to WoW balance or anything else. Frost DK and Monk spent some amount of time designed around using 2H weapons, while Enh Shaman was only designed around 2H weapons in Vanilla. Again, I’m talking about intentional design. People used 2H weapons, but that wasn’t Blizzard’s intent. Even in Vanilla, how much of the Shaman raid gear works for Enhancement? None? It was a one-shot slot machine for PvP, which is the only thing anyone has ever specced into it for since.
2. Player choice differentiation, I guess, but here’s the dismal future: unless you balance them within probably 5%, anyone who chooses to be the lesser spec will be declined from groups (M+ and raids), and the forums will get carpet bombed by pleas to balance the weapons out. Sure, some players won’t care, and they’ll take their 2H around doing world quests or whatever, but that doesn’t remove the fact that there will be complaints, and Blizz will have to address them, or be called out for “not caring about Shamans” again. It’s a no-win scenario for Blizz, for a weapon type they haven’t designed Enhancement around since Vanilla.
3. I can’t find a 3rd. You’ll need to help me out.

If I’m correct in #1 and #2, they essentially boil down to “they get it” and “I want it”. In video game design, you’re going to be able to find a group of players who want some thing, no matter what that thing is. Do you know how long people have wanted a Shaman tank spec? Since vanilla. The reason? “Rockbiter and Earth Shock (or whichever shock) increased threat, and there’s a shield talent, so it must have been part of the intention in Vanilla”.

Half-baked Vanilla design, a desire to go against convention, and eventually, “Druids got 4 specs so why can’t Shaman have 4 specs?”. In other words, “I want it” and “They have it, why can’t I”.

I don’t mean this to sound like it’s going to, but that’s how a kid argues for a toy. There has to be more substance here, or it’s too easy to dismiss. In the 2H thread, I broke down what I think Blizz would have to do to make 2H work even remotely close to DW, with as many numbers as I could slap together, thinking of as many systems as I could. So far, I’m seemingly the only one who has done that, and I don’t even advocate for 2H to return to Enhancement.

The reasoning for Frost DKs? Because at one point recently the class was designed with it in mind and they seemingly only lost it because of Artifact shoehorning. Also, DKs are already in the loot pool for 2Hers. Also, it’s probably a fairly easy switch flip.

The reasoning for Monks? Seems to be the same as Frost DK.

The reasoning for Warriors? Seems to be the same as the other two, though I think this one adds another layer that I’m not familiar with personally.

I never understand people who dislike something so much, something that would have no effect on them personally, that they go out of their way to try and make sure it will never happen. Seen this thing all the time with Allied races, I seriously do not get it.

It’s because any time spent trying to shoehorn 2H back into Enhancement is time they could have spent simply refining the spec to make it feel better, or time they could have spent iterating on defensive options. There isn’t an infinite amount of dev/design time, so when I don’t want 2H to return, it’s because I understand that they have to prioritize the work they’re doing, and I’d rather they prioritize the design direction of the spec instead of branching to try to appease a vocal minority on a web forum that can’t seem to be bothered to put in the effort to think through all the balance required.

You can have your opinion, but being told to support it more thoroughly is valid.

[Nanohana-moon-guard]

enhance needs tons of changes that are worth fighting for, and you guys are focused on a cosmetic one that doesnt even matter. Wish blizz would just say no! You are not and never ill get 2 handed weapons back, move on.

[Keelhaul-wyrmrest-accord (Keelhaul)]

People have given plenty of good reasons, as good of a reason as the people wanting Dual Wield vs Two-Hander for Monk and DK or SMF vs TG for Fury Warrior.

Having player choice that differentiates you from other Enhancement Shamans, that not every build is the same. The visual appeal of wielding a big, powerful, Two-Hander vs the dexterous finesse of Dual Wielding. A return to how things once were in an age of depruning and returning to the past.

OK, I don’t really care that much about if people get to mog one way or the other, that’s fine either way for me. But I’ve noticed that there’s definitely something more to 2h Shaman arguments from the rest of those.

When I see people argue for the rest of those, it’s in reference to the visual appeal. I could be wrong, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone talk about the gameplay aspect excluding Single Minded Fury coming up, it’s always purely about the visual appeal.

When I see people argue for 2h Shaman, however, they frequently refer to how it “was better” gameplay-wise. And, while I can understand the visual appeal, I don’t get the gameplay appeal, but for some reason it always comes up.

[Elehehe-dalaran (Elehehe)]

1. “Because another class gets it” has never, ever been a valid reason for anything relating to WoW balance or anything else.

The reasoning here is not “they get it, so I want it”, it’s “I want it, so I want it”. Pointing out that other classes get it is just an argument to say it’s feasible.

2. Player choice differentiation, I guess, but here’s the dismal future: unless you balance them within probably 5%, anyone who chooses to be the lesser spec will be declined from groups (M+ and raids), and the forums will get carpet bombed by pleas to balance the weapons out.

The same will hold true for Frost DKs and Monks. There will be complaint posts, as you say, but there will also be support posts and arguments for and against like in this post. I’m in favor of player choice, and so what if some complain or get refused M+ groups? That’s their problem to solve, not yours.

Sure, some players won’t care, and they’ll take their 2H around doing world quests or whatever, but that doesn’t remove the fact that there will be complaints, and Blizz will have to address them, or be called out for “not caring about Shamans” again. It’s a no-win scenario for Blizz, for a weapon type they haven’t designed Enhancement around since Vanilla.

So in a few sentences, you say that players that choose the “sub-par 2H” are just good enough for world quests and that Blizzard is incapable of tuning for 2H and dual-wield well enough (how did they do it for DK and Monk then?). Also, it’s not a no win for Blizzard, because players that disagree on this topic are players that play the game and pay a sub.

[Raigor-turalyon]

The reasoning here is not “they get it, so I want it”, it’s “I want it, so I want it”. Pointing out that other classes get it is just an argument to say it’s feasible.

It’s a bad argument, which is what I said. Argue within the context of your own class’s mechanics, because those classes don’t work like Enhancement. If all you’re saying is that they technically can do it, well sure. Technically Ret Paladins could be given DW. But that doesn’t carry any weight. It’s whether they should.

The same will hold true for Frost DKs and Monks. There will be complaint posts, as you say, but there will also be support posts and arguments for and against like in this post. I’m in favor of player choice, and so what if some complain or get refused M+ groups? That’s their problem to solve, not yours.

I know, which is why I don’t see the point in bringing back 2H for those specs either. It’s easy to say “so what” about player complaints when you aren’t the one who has to deal with them, but if that’s your stance, it’s a dead end. It’s like if I said “so what if some players complain that Enh doesn’t get 2H? That’s their problem to solve”. It gets us nowhere in the conversation.

So in a few sentences, you say that players that choose the “sub-par 2H” are just good enough for world quests and that Blizzard is incapable of tuning for 2H and dual-wield well enough (how did they do it for DK and Monk then?). Also, it’s not a no win for Blizzard, because players that disagree on this topic are players that play the game and pay a sub.

How did they tune properly for DK and Monk? I don’t know, the game’s in alpha so there’s no data yet. If you’re going to talk about DK and Monk, explain how their rotations work, explain how 2H might function within that system, and draw a parallel back to Shaman. If you can’t do that, it isn’t worth bringing up at all, because it’s apples and oranges.

And yeah, I don’t trust Blizzard’s ability to tune. See: every expansion. Remember when they took a champion pvp Enhancement Shaman and nerfed it into the worst arena spec in the game? Then left it there the entire expansion? What makes you trust their ability to stay on top of tuning?

No idea what you’re talking about re: the sub, so I can’t comment.

All I’m saying is there’s opportunity to do so much better arguing for 2H Enh, and no one is bothering.

[Grimvolt-thrall]

Even if you got 2h back no one would ever recommend using it. Enh shamans are all about quantity over quality of attacks. A 2h weapon would be a massive decrease in dps due to halving the ammount of “each weapon attack” triggers like Windfury or Stormstrike.

I mean, I don’t mind players having the option but you need to know the mechanics are designed for two 1h weapns. Some players may be frusterated as to why its even an option if it performs so poorly.

[Tuono-area-52]

They’ll have to add more abilities to make 2H more consistent. Lava Lash, Rockbiter, and Stormstrike aren’t enuff to make 2H competitive with 1H proccing multiple stormstrikes and windfury’s everywhere. It’ll be a bigger numbers but less overall damage spec like 2H Frost vs 1H Frost. I prefer 2H frost over 2H enhance cuz 2H frost actually has a ton of abilities to make up for the slow swing time of a 2 hander.

[Agustis-kiljaeden]

A lot of discussion and argument here just doesn’t make sense to me. You can argue about whether or not it makes sense to add 2H option for enhancement and balancing the numbers and all, but none of this addresses transmogging. Maybe I’m wrong, but I expect allowing shamans to transmog their DW to a single 2H and adjusting animations is nearly trivial. I would be satisfied with this and I’m sure many others in this thread would be too. I can’t see one argument against it. This already exists for holy paladins.

[Kelgar-the-scryers (Kelgar)]

you should play classic wow 2hd enhance is a blast and classic tbc will be coming next year.as far as retail goes id rather play another class then a shaman.

i got my dk ready for 2hd frost.

[Ulfalouruain-hakkar]

YEP bring 2handed back to enhancment shamans

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