Righteous Fury Mechanics == OP Paladin Threat (1k+ TPS)

[Valarkin-pagle]

Maul would do 262% of damage done as threat. Or it does 162% more threat per point of damage. You just kind of mixed both together and gives the impression that maul would do 362% of damage as threat.

Your right Zel, the way I posted it was confusing.

For every 1 point of damage Maul causes 2.62 points of threat.

Maul is simply OP in terms of threat.

Swipe is kinda sucky

Faerie Fire is horrid for threat

So thank god Maul gets the job done!

[Zeliek-moon-guard (Zeliek)]

I like druid tanks, anything really to push warriors from tanking to dps is always a good thing. When I heard that maul received a multiplier instead of a flat amount of threat, it was really exciting for me. I always like to play underdog classes and specs simply because they are usually the classes that end up actually being the most fun.

[Zeliek-moon-guard (Zeliek)]

Actually, no, you can’t.

Test it for yourself if you want, but if you’re casting buffs every GCD, you won’t be auto attacking. Perhaps this works differently for certain spells, but for me, casting seems to delay (reset?) my auto attack swing. Here is proof:
https://gyazo.com/3d7ffe37d9733f7e47b728ec64741e38

Yes, we can. Try it with insect swarm and it won’t reset your swing timer. Mechanically speaking paladins and shaman are just built differently than other classes and their instant cast spells don’t reset the swing timer.

That said, I think most guilds that would stack that many of a class probably wouldn’t be the types to bring a Prot Paladin.

Look at the OP’s video.

You were arguing that Paladins were “BiS.”

Look again.

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

Try it with insect swarm and it won’t reset your swing timer. Mechanically speaking paladins and shaman are just built differently than other classes and their instant cast spells don’t reset the swing timer.

I tried it with several spells. I did MotW first since it made the most sense, being a buff, as well.

If it works differently for Paladins and Shamans, I s’pose that makes sense. I’ll take your word for it.

Look at the OP’s video.

“most guilds”

Look again.

Druids are better Tanks than Warriors right now, and will remain so in terms of TPS all the way through to the end of Classic

If this is true, then by logic paladins are superior to druids in that they do more TPS until druids get fully decked in AQ gear.

/shrug

[Zeliek-moon-guard (Zeliek)]

For druids, Insect Swarm is the only one that doesn’t reset the swing timer. You might not have it because you are tanking, but it is true. My brother uses it all the time with a mouseover macro while fishing for OoC procs while healing.

/shrug

It wasn’t a lie. Paladins can scale up to 3000+ tps. Never said it was practical or necessary, nor BiS.

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

For druids, Insect Swarm is the only one that doesn’t reset the swing timer.

Interesting.

My brother uses it all the time with a mouseover macro while fishing for OoC procs while healing.

That seems a bit odd, but I don’t really want to get into that.

It wasn’t a lie. Paladins can scale up to 3000+ tps. Never said it was practical or necessary, nor BiS.

Not saying it was a lie or not. You said I’d be hard pressed to find anyone arguing that Paladins were “BiS,” which I’ll just interpret to mean “the best tanks.”

The EH gap between Warriors and Druids only starts to close late into AQ40 but whether or not that actually matters is entirely another thing. The Avoidance gap always favors Warriors but again, unless Healers are OOM or threatening to OOM, this really isn’t all that relevant.

With DPS specs playing and gearing appropriately, upping TPS seems to be the highest priority, which puts Druids on top, followed by Warriors, followed way below that by Paladins.

I tend to agree with this assessment. TPS and DPS seem far more important than survivability at the moment. Maybe this will change in later tiers, but for now, tanks have no issue surviving.

As such, they rate Druids as the better tank.

There’s three tank specs in Classic. Feral, Protection (Paladin), and Protection (Warrior).

If Feral > Prot Warrior, and Prot Paladin > Feral, then Prot Paladin is the best tank.

[Plaguelust-malganis]

I’m fully aware of all that. But ultimately warrior trumps all so that makes Druids zeros not heroes.

Its like you didn’t read at all…

Warriors never catch Druids on TPS. Put a Bear Tank in front of the boss and have them activate MCP, done.

Warriors never catch Druids on EH, even late into Naxx, because the Warrior has to hope for an Inspiration proc to edge them just shy of Armor Cap while having inferior Health at all stages. Warriors start out 1240 Health in the hole (Dire Bear Form) and only get 83.3% of what Druids do with regards to Health from Stamina. The 10% reduction from Defensive Stance just doesn’t bridge that gap.

The only place Warriors shine is on Avoidance, and this only matters in a very serious way on Loatheb due to the Healer mechanic. On other fights it comes down to your Healing and DPS abilities. Does the fight go quickly and are the Healers semi-efficient? Druids avoiding less has no downside as you need to get hit to get Rage to hold Threat and the Healers aren’t in danger of going OOM. Does the fight drag on forever and the Healers are spamming the Tank? Warriors are better suited because they’re likely to require less overall Healing than the Druid if and only if the Warrior is geared for survivability.

That’s how people like shift think. It’s most optimal or nothing at all.

If this is what you got out of Shift’s posts… I question your ability to read.

If this is true, then by logic paladins are superior to druids in that they do more TPS until druids get fully decked in AQ gear.

Druids can out TPS a Paladin right now in single-target with just MCP.

They also have the niche of being able to do massive amounts of threat when away from the target as they have a larger resource pool than either warrior or druid.

In what situation do you want someone to hold threat from afar that can actually be accomplished by a Paladin better than a Warlock?

Also your “resource pool” is apples to oranges to a Druid or Warrior. You could have millions of Mana and it wouldn’t make a difference as that doesn’t translate to anything other than longevity in doing what Druids/Warriors do without any end cap at all.

I think Plaguelust is forgetting about that whole “druids usually explode when any of the bosses in Naxx even so much as look at them” thing.

Oh yes… Druids with their larger EH pools than any Warrior will certainly explode in Naxx for… umm… reasons…

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

You are probably the most petulant poster on all of the Classic forums; it is truly astonishing to behold. Your immature need to quote

every

single

thing

like this, with some kind of sideways commentary is worrying. Like some kid who always needs the last word — you remind me of #45. Sad!

That’s nice. Do you have any real arguments?

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

@Glaivedonuts-elune

Don’t know that she needs to make an argument when you go right to the task of proving her point. You act like a kid. Or worse - a streamer

And by “she,” you mean your alt, yes?

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/us/elune/thicchicc/achievements/feats-of-strength/promotions
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/us/elune/glaivedonuts/achievements/feats-of-strength/promotions

[Tesla-heartseeker]

druids can’t do 3k tps right now.

[Tesla-heartseeker]

Yet the majority of arguments presented in this thread have been arguing the superiority of Paladins in various regards.

The comment that sparked the post you’re replying to was actually from you saying that Paladins are better than Druids in reply to someone saying Druids are better tanks than Warriors .

You were arguing that Paladins were “BiS.”

Situationally. I don’ think any tank should be the best at everything. But they should be the best at something and at least serviceable at everything else. If a pug needs a tank for something, they shouldn’t care which class they get.

There’s a good amount of specs in the game where they can each shine in their niche but they shouldn’t have to suck at everything else. That’s the beauty of classic, even if it has gone partially unfulfilled.

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

I don’ think any tank should be the best at everything. But they should be the best at something and at least serviceable at everything else. If a pug needs a tank for something, they shouldn’t care which class they get.

What you think should be isn’t important, though. All that matters is what is, based on what was in vanilla.

People are always going to care what class their tank is as long as that makes a difference. In vanilla, and in Classic, it does make a difference.

[Fasciae-fairbanks]

druids can’t do 3k tps right now.

This would matter if anyone was doing 3.3k DPS or greater. Never mind the fact that Blessing spam can be accomplished by any Paladin with RF up and serves zero purpose other than maintaining threat, something the other Tanks do handily while doing other things, like damage and debuffs.

In just dungeon blues with a focus on +Hit and MCP running, a Druid will hit about 850 sustained TPS. That’s overkill for threat except for the fact that the Druid would be dealing ~300 DPS as well.

/shrug

[Zeliek-moon-guard (Zeliek)]

In just dungeon blues with a focus on +Hit and MCP running, a Druid will hit about 850 sustained TPS. That’s overkill for threat except for the fact that the Druid would be dealing ~300 DPS as well.

/shrug

It’s overkill until naxx/AQ ignite numbers. Seriously, ignite is the only reason anyone would need over 1k tps. The fact that paladin can push those numbers easily means that tps is no longer an issue for paladin tanking and the fact all 3 tanks can do them means that a raid has more variety and flexibility for scheduling and capability especially since most gear for tanks don’t overlap.

Never mind the fact that Blessing spam can be accomplished by any Paladin with RF up and serves zero purpose other than maintaining threat, something the other Tanks do handily while doing other things, like damage and debuffs.

And any other druid can shift to bear or warrior can change stance to defensive. Warriors do sunder, druids do FF, and paladins have judgements. Druids definitely do a lot more dps, but warrior dps is almost as bad as a paladin’s in comparison too. This thread was never about paladins being the best tanks (certain fights they may actually be BiS theoretically for portions), it was about paladins being capable tanks for all levels of content (notice how I said " all levels of content" instead of “all content”). TPS is the biggest disqualifier as being the biggest bottleneck.

Situationally. I don’ think any tank should be the best at everything. But they should be the best at something and at least serviceable at everything else. If a pug needs a tank for something, they shouldn’t care which class they get.

Unfortunately, despite the capability certain people only care that they are perceived as being usable. Most people aren’t going to care unlike certain people that have unfounded perceptions of the class.

[Fasciae-fairbanks]

It’s overkill until naxx/AQ ignite numbers. Seriously, ignite is the only reason anyone would need over 1k tps.

Which is fine, the Druid will be doing that with MCP, Hit cap, and tremendously higher AP/Crit, or >400 DPS. The Paladin on the other hand is just slamming down Symbols of Kings and adding nothing else.

And any other druid can shift to bear or warrior can change stance to defensive.

Except not at all, especially for Druids. The spec puts a dramatic gulf between Feral Druids and all other varieties, including other Ferals if they spec for Cat-focused talents over Bear, on both TPS and Survivability fronts. A Paladin spamming Greater Blessings isn’t going to come close a Druid or a Warrior, especially if that Warrior is Fury Tanking for faster kills and steadier TPS.
And the Paladin isn’t going to hold a candle to either Druids or Warriors on Survivability. By sheer virtue of being able to Block a Paladin may be better than a Druid on Loatheb, solely due to the unique weirdness of that fight and how lightly he hits, but outside of that a Paladin is going to be well behind the defensive curve before AQ40 even finishes.

This thread was never about paladins being the best tanks

When a thread opens with “OP Paladin Threat” this is a completely disingenuous statement.

Paladins can compensate for their mismatched skillset by buff spamming to hold threat no matter what while still being able to wear dungeon blues against content that isn’t bad, but that’s the end of it. By the numbers, Paladins are inferior Tanks to Druids and Warriors and the last thing anyone should be lying about is using blessing spam TPS numbers to mask the deficiencies across the board, especially when that sort of thing gives less informed players a false sense of future ability.

[Zeliek-moon-guard (Zeliek)]

When a thread opens with “OP Paladin Threat” this is a completely disingenuous statement.

the last thing anyone should be lying about is using blessing spam TPS numbers to mask the deficiencies across the board, especially when that sort of thing gives less informed players a false sense of future ability.

I don’t think the word disingenuous is the word to get your point across because it is incongruent with the statement you appear to be trying to make. If it was, then your argument stems from the OP being malicious, dishonest, deceitful, and/or underhanded.

Paladins can reach 1k+ threat, how is that a lie? It’s the only thing the thread was ever about. Where did the OP ever state that paladins were superior to Warriors and Druids? Why make an argument if you didn’t even read the thread? If you aren’t informed, you are just trolling with facts that aren’t necessary in a thread about one single facet of a class.

I find it funny how a very few argue about how much better the other tanks are in all facets in a thread that only states that paladins can do threat. It really is hilarious as all it shows is how insecure those select few are that they have to argue something that was never in doubt in this thread. If you read the thread from start to finish, the only ones argue that paladins aren’t superior are the ones that bring it up out of nowhere. Everyone else only ever refutes the claim that paladins are useless at all levels. Not that it matters that I type this because it is just getting ignored and probably quoted to end up fueling further argument that derails the thread by virtue of being a red herring.

[Iluvyoutoo-emerald-dream]

no changes.

this isnt an issue due to something new added like warriors shout and layering.

[Fasciae-fairbanks]

I don’t think the word disingenuous is the word to get your point across because it is incongruent with the statement you appear to be trying to make. If it was, then your argument stems from the OP being malicious, dishonest, deceitful, and/or underhanded.

When other facets of tanking are deliberately downplayed to highlight a specific mechanic, complete with click-bait title, arguing that the thread isn’t about Paladins being the best Tanks is in fact disingenuous. You then double down on it.

Paladins can reach 1k+ threat, how is that a lie?

You probably should either reread or stop strawmanning.

It really is hilarious as all it shows is how insecure those select few are that they have to argue something that was never in doubt in this thread.

This is why you’re disingenuous: you have to conjure up insecurities and emotional bias as a reason to get push back. You aren’t to be taken seriously if your first go-to is emotional.

If you read the thread from start to finish, the only ones argue that paladins aren’t superior are the ones that bring it up out of nowhere .

Add gas-lighting to it as well.

[Ohgodmyeyez-hyjal]

Okay, so I’ve read through a big chunk of the 250+ posts in this thread, and I’m having kind of a hard time understanding why folks seem so miffed by it.

If your guild has a Paladin tank and that Paladin tank is willing to expend the money required for reagents and the guild benefits from having the Paladin present… who else really cares?

I mean, sure, it’s a lot of threat, but it’s also kind of boring as hell to play. I’d be pretty surprised if a Paladin who wants aggro and can maintain it without spamming Kings on the most populous class in the raid would still do so just because it’s optimal.

If anything, this just makes me go, “Huh. Neat.”

And that’s about it, really.