Retuning is neccesary

[Åpocalypse-illidan (Åpocalypse)]

and if you had any sense at all you would have used that word in your title.

How is YOU not being capable of reading more than a title and incorrectly making assumptions before running your mouth the OP’s problem?
Quit derailing the thread with your garbage, reporting yet again for trolling.

MC isn’t LFR difficulty, heck they had a 10th anniversary MC LFR and idiots were wiping left right and center because MC actually makes you do mechanics. Something LFR people have no concept of.

It’s also not designed to be killing or nearly killing Ragnaros before the first sons phase in leveling greens. Quit advocating for a massive handout to casual players and an evisceration of half the content we are going to get.

Also, even retail LFR has some mechanics at times (on par with vanilla mechanics at least)… the numbers tuning is a large part of what makes LFR so faceroll, and the numbers tuning is WAAAAAAY off using 1.12 class balance/debuff limit/tank threat, as the OP is pointing out.

If you really want “no changes” then you should be ON BOARD with keeping raids at their actual intended difficulties, rather than being yet another purist hypocrite.

[Mogar-stormrage (Mogar)]

I didn’t realize when 1.12 was launched that they removed all the old dungeons and raids, and no one did them anymore.

Oh wait, plenty of guilds were doing MC, BWL , etc after 1.12. Like it or not that is authentic Vannila.

[Matcauthon-steamwheedle-cartel (Matcauthon)]

Also, even retail LFR has some mechanics at times (on par with vanilla mechanics at least)… the numbers tuning is a large part of what makes LFR so faceroll, and the numbers tuning is WAAAAAAY off using 1.12 class balance/debuff limit/tank threat, as the OP is pointing out.

and what happens any time they have mechanics they can’t brute force through?
they flood the forums with tears.

If you really want “no changes” then you should be ON BOARD with keeping raids at their actual intended difficulties, rather than being yet another purist hypocrite.

and fyi, i would love raid re-tuning. however i have already accepted that it isn’t happening.

[Ristra-suramar (Ristra)]

That’s out of context. They were specifically talking about class balancing. However, I do feel that this form of balancing isn’t within the scope of what the devs believe this project is about.

[Johnnyderp-arthas (Johnnyderp)]

Nothing really needs to be retuned. You’re talking about raid stuff. Believe it or not, the overwhelming majority of players didn’t even raid in classic.

[Studmuffyn-veknilash (Studmuffyn)]

Geez, do you people even read the post you’re replying to?

Telling me to go play BFA? I love Vanilla. Do you realize the Classic raids we are getting are going to be at a difficulty to BFA LFR? What im asking for is to make things like they were in Vanilla, not the piss easy LFR style raids that we would get if nothing is done.

If they were so easy with 1.12, then why did so few people complete raids at all?

and no, MC isn’t LFR difficulty

I dunno once your geared it sure is,lol

[Arazlok-kilrogg (Arazlok)]

Same here I don’t think raid difficulty and making the raiders harder is really what Blizzard intends to do with this project.

I honestly feel Blizzard will try to make initial launch allows the most people to play the game and than steps away from it for a few months.

[Ristra-suramar (Ristra)]

Believe it or not, just because people didn’t raid in vanilla, does not mean raid will be less of a motivation to play Classic.

Many people come into this forum claiming they want to raid this time through since they didn’t when vanilla was live.

[Åpocalypse-illidan (Åpocalypse)]

Nothing really needs to be retuned. You’re talking about raid stuff. Believe it or not, the overwhelming majority of players didn’t even raid in classic.

No one cares that you where a casual. Casuals where irrelevant at end game, which is what this topic is discussing. Furthermore, Classic’s design was entirely about effort/reward ratios. You could get epics, but it took significant effort to go into raids and do that. It was certainly rarer for most people than I think Blizzard expected, but raiding as a means of character progression post 60 was how vanilla was intentionally designed designed and originally balanced.

Being able to “skip ahead” on the gear progression curve because you can pug MC while wearing greens with 1.12 talents, gear, and threat generation is pretty antithetical to the game as a whole.

[Velossena-wyrmrest-accord (Velossena)]

Yes I know it’s out of context, but it’s within the spirit of what they said. Retuning the raids is 1 step away from rebalancing the classes.

[Studmuffyn-veknilash (Studmuffyn)]

Just FYI…
Patch 1.12 came out August 22, 2006. The TBC prepatch came out December 5th, 2006. So patch 1.12 was active for about 3 months. Its actually a very small part of Vanilla.

The intent of patch 1.12 was to make content easier so people could finish Vanilla raids before TBC came out.

Seeing as Classic is a game that is going to be around for a lone time, there is no reason to rush people through content as was the intent with the original 1.12.

Say we get the easy version 1.12 raids, what happens after a few months when all the content is cleared? Why shorten the games lifespan like that when there is no new content coming? Make it last, there is no rush in Classic.

Ok, how long do you keep the tuning for then?

[Moonblade-hyjal (Moonblade)]

If you had read the post before replying you would have several mentions of the word retune.

this is a quote directly from Ion, at blizzcon;

In original World of Warcraft, when the game launched in 2004, you could have 8 debuffs on a mob. and that was it. and then things would start to get pushed off. I feel bad for you if you were a warrior, trying to use Deep Wounds and trying to convince your raid leader that it was the best talent to do damage. I feel REALLY bad for you if you were a rogue wielding a Barman Shanker but those were, you know, that was something that was not compatible with keeping key things like Sunder Armor on bosses that you were fighting in dungeons, let alone raids. We raised that debuff limit to 16 in 2005 but that’s where it stood all the way until Burning Crusade and went up to 40. And today, it’s 250- effectively uncapped. So whatta we do here? Honestly, this was a technical limitation. I don’t think that this was an example of design values differing. This was just a question of how much memory was being used for each unit in the world, and what could the service handle at the time. It’s honestly, frankly, not great game design. To have a game where you have 40 player raids, where each member of that raid, might apply up to a couple of debuffs and they are all fighting the same enemy and you can only have a total 16 of them at once. With no real control over what gets pushed off…Not great. That said, we are restoring the 16 debuff limit. Now why are we doing that, you might ask? When it’s frankly, objectively worse design? That actually implicates the 3rd point in the original philosophy slide. Which is: We don’t want to mess with the 1.12 data. We don’t want to mess with balance. If we change the code in this regard, whose to say what effects that would have on balance and on raids, and pvp and elsewhere. Maybe suddenly dot classes like Warlocks and others are far more effective than they had been and we have, actually, a different outcome- a different meta game, than the original classic experience produced and that would actually be deviating from authenticity. This was an area where, even though we feel it worse and we can articulate arguments for why, even the team of 2006- would have raised the limit, if they could have technically-- We’re not going to. Because it would be inaccurate.

[Arazlok-kilrogg (Arazlok)]

Raids are not going to be available day 1 and I have a feeling we’ll see them dropped during content droughts in retail.

e.g. first raid comes out a little after 8.2 raids is released.

[Studmuffyn-veknilash (Studmuffyn)]

well MC and Onyxia should be.

[Arazlok-kilrogg (Arazlok)]

You’re right MC and Ony will be able to do day 1, of course no one will be able to day 1 but at launch they will have these raids.

[Studmuffyn-veknilash (Studmuffyn)]

You’re right MC and Ony will be able to do day 1, of course no one will be able to day 1 but at launch they will have these raids.

hold my beer…

[Ristra-suramar (Ristra)]

Making the claim that the devs said it is the issue.

[Arazlok-kilrogg (Arazlok)]

Just because people want to raid doesn’t mean they actually will. Raiding in Vanilla was a job, you had to put a lot of time into that majority of players just couldn’t do.

I’m sure with the changes, the first few raids that will be open MC and Onyxia will be able to do once people get their resistance gear and attune for it.

[Matcauthon-steamwheedle-cartel (Matcauthon)]

That’s true of everything.

[Matcauthon-steamwheedle-cartel (Matcauthon)]

Say we get the easy version 1.12 raids, what happens after a few months when all the content is cleared?

You really think aq and naxx are going to be on farm in a few months?