More crawfishing? I’m sure it will work better this time.
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Yikes buddy you don’t even know what that means
You can keep spamming that because you are too dense to refute any other point I made
I’ll give you honest credit for your conclusion by bringing this example of the Solo Shuffle matchmaking algorithm example, but (now pay attention) this is NOT data/numbers, which is what we’ve asked for in order to defend your position. Your answer is almost the perfect example of our (Ret Paladins) point in this conversation.
Your conclusion of “Ret paladin is so overwhelmingly broken beyond all belief” is actually based on the amount of representation in the lobbies. One can easily come to OTHER conclusions on why this is, other than Ret Paladins being “broken beyond all belief”. Hospitalar and I have given a few examples such as—
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Paladins have a much smother flow now since the rework. Not a lot of button bloat and not as clunky. Many players have cited this as their reasoning for coming back.
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Survivability. This was probably THE major issue of Paladins since we were the class which died the most of ALL classes. Blizzard themselves had admitted this. Players can now appreciate a Plate Class that doesn’t die when we’re sneezed upon, which brings me to my third point—
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The other classes have gotten so used to Paladins being easy targets that we were considered “free lunch” to them. There have been honest players that have gone on record on these forums that have stated when they used to see a Paladin, they would salivate and target us first because we were easy kills. And now that we don’t die at a mere sneeze, many players don’t know how to mentally get over this, so they cry “OP”.
Hospitalar and others have given hard numbers (and numbers don’t lie) on why rets are NOT op. We are NOT tops in DPS and our survivability is roughly equal now to other classes such as Warriors and others. Our flow, our respectable (but NOT op) dps, utility and survivability now finally after several years, make us a class to be reckoned with.
Ret paladins are super tanky with double 1 min walls and passive 60k heal every 6th global and make their teammates immortal with low cooldown sanc, sac, unbound freedom while also having magic bop and lay on hands in the back pocket
that’s why they are broken.
Not because they do good damage. That’s fine ret paladin SHOULD do good damage.
Most played spec in the entire game in 3s and solo shuffle
https://www.check-pvp.com/stats?bracket=solo&rating=2400&class=2&spec=70
Rets and melee players in general are always EXTREMELY bias. When hpal is broken like in s1 shadowlands and s4 bfa I can admit it is OP and needs nerfs.
You need to let go of your bias and have a wider understanding.
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Uh-uh. Rets have had their survivabilty nerfed more than once. Fading Light is useless with only 3%, Lightforged Blessing has been lowered from 4 to 2% and Crusader’s Reprieve went from 4 to 2% as well. And we’re probably the slowest class in the damn game, easily kited by other classes. Hell, there’s an entire post dedicated on how to beat Rets, BY rets. We need what little survivabilty we have since we’re slow as hell without any gap closer.
Your biasness shows by mentioning our positives without mentioning our more-than-obvious negatives.
Which does NOT mean OP, as addressed previously with THREE examples.
And you’re not?? Really?? 
Whelp, there ya go. Finally got to the cause of your argument. Thanks for (unintentionally) showing this.
Most of your damage comes from 20 yard range final verdict and judgements which are abilities that don’t require melee range
Also unbound freedom is up for a third of the game. If you are getting seriously kited as a Ret by anything other than mage then it’s a serious skill issue
And still the tankiest dps spec in the entire game. Crazy isn’t it?
No because when the classes I play are too powerful I can honestly acknowledge it.
When aura of reckoning was 50 stacks and made judgement do 70k while keeping melee wings up the entire game I acknowledged that it was OP and it got nerfed.
After rsham rework same time as ret I acknowledged that resto shaman hps was too powerful.
Ret paladin received multiple nerfs and is still the most played and most competitive spec in the entire game.
You cannot see past your bias and have lots of “Please don’t nerf me” type energy
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Most range dps is further than 20 yards. And Unbound Freedom, while good, is NOT a great gap closer.
Yeah, since that’s not true. Warriors and other classes are just as tanky.
Wait, wait—because you made one acknowledgement concerning ONE instance (which many rets have done), you’re unbiased, despite the fact your calling an entire class OP? Because you’re getting your @$$ whupped? The mere fact that you stated this–“Rets and melee players in general are always EXTREMELY bias”, automatically show YOUR biassnes toward us.
And you STILL haven’t acknowledged my football analogy concerning non pvp players.
You do realize the amount of distance required to kite a melee with 20 yard range is significantly greater than that of one that exclusively relies on melee range
Say that again with a straight face
When they have ret paladins on their team for sure.
I’m not talking about mythic + btw this is a pvp only discussion in case you were confused
The only class that competes with ret for the tankiest stand alone dps spec is demo lock no other class comes close.
You should try scrolling up and then you will notice I stated multiple instances from multiple expansions.
Pretty much everyone is calling ret OP except for low skill ret players. Vanguards is a lifetime ret main and the highest ret on the ladder and he even agrees it needs nerfs LMAO
Because ret paladins and warlocks define the entire game right now. Both these classes need to be brought in line.
Ret doesn’t need Super huge nerfs. Just some design changes.
Blessing of sacrifice should be no shorter than a 2 minute cooldown for ret paladins. But should be buffed back to 30% again.
Blessing of sanctuary should replace blessing of sacrifice when it is talented into.
Judgements of the pure is an outdated mechanic and should be removed
Buff shield of vengeance absorb but make it a 90 second cooldown so it is desynced with divine protection
No damage nerfs. Just do this and ret is fine.
I already addressed it multiple times but you are just too smooth brained to comprehend what I said. You should scroll up and try again.
You know how the old saying goes
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you .” - Mark Twain
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You do realize that despite said difference, Paladin being the SLOWEST class in the game needs that range to be competitive, despite being a melee class…
Done. Next…
Are you kidding me? Warriors survivability is extremely well known. To think Paladins outclass them in survivability is just flat out wrong.
But not asking for nerfs of another entire class.
Uh-huh. Everyone who’s NOT a ret and getting their @$$ handed to them. Next…
Yeah, because Rogues, Warriors and Hunters are sooo far behind, right?
No you didn’t. You addressed the professional aspect of the argument made by Hospitalar, not my argument on it.
Reminds me of a saying from Mark Twain—“No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot.”
When did I say nerf their range? You are agreeing with me that their range makes them competitive and hard to kite. Finally you are seeing the light.
You don’t actually pvp so I can understand and the confusion
You also don’t play anything besides ret so I can understand the bias as well.
Exhibit A: if you scroll up you can see that I was also asking for Demo lock nerfs
I already know you can’t read tho it’s all good buddy.
Exhibit B:
When assa rogues we’re the most broken spec in the game I made this post on my rsham
Starting to think you might unironically be illiterate
Only other classes that come close. Mainly because they synergies extremely well with ret paladin while also being overtuned.
This is EXTEEMELY IRONIC considering the fact I linked you multiple data sets and screenshots of quad ret lobbies and you brushed off the ultra high participation as ret paladin simply being a fun to play class while not offering any hard evidence of your own lmaooo
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Nuh-uh. This is MY point, not yours. They need whatever range they can get because they’re slow as hell. This AND their survivabilty keeps them in the game. Otherwise they go back to being the class that dies the most, despite being a Plate Class.
Okay, are you saying Paladin survivabilty outright outclasses that of Warriors?
Still don’t see any quotes of asking for nerf. Next…
Right back at’cha.
So basically you like b!+ching of any class YOU deem OP. Okay…
What do you not understand? That is NOT actual data/numbers!! Are you mental? I gave three, THREE examples why those lobbies have rets, and none of my examples had to do with them being OP.
But we already know your mindset on why you’re here…“Rets and melee players in general are always EXTREMELY bias” Thank you for showing us your intentions.
This is the general consensus among the pvp community yes. Double one minute walls with consistent self healing with bubble magic bop lay on hands and the ability to sanc your healer out of crowd control is superior to impending victory and die by the sword.
I’m sure the random ret paladin on the paladin forums knows better tho
I know buddy.
You have my condolences
The general consensus among the pvp community is that ret and warlock are the 2 best pvp classes in the entire game with arms and bm hunter not too far behind. I’m sure you know better tho.
Except all your examples are your own personal opinions and not rooted in fact. Remember numbers don’t lie!
Numbers and statistics would be considered data.
Mages in shadowlands we’re extremely bias when they were broken and warlocks are also extremely bias when their class is broken.
Rets and melee players take it to a whole other level of stupidity tho.
I don’t have a bias against rets. When ret was one of the best specs in the game during s3 shadowlands and destroying people with wings procs and vanq hammer I didn’t have an issue with them because they aren’t as broken as they are now.
If you think ret is completely fine as is from a pvp standpoint then you are so far out of touch with reality that no evidence I present will convince you otherwise.
Literally most of the top rets think ret is too strong.
Random 1k ret on paladin forums that says he doesn’t pvp: “nah ret is completely fine trust me bro”
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No it’s not. I’ve talked with Warriors and seen their post and they acknowledge that their survivability is roughly (give or take) the same as a ret. Next…
Hunters are whupping @$$ when it comes to dps and Warriors are an inch behind Paladins. So just stop.
Yeah, because lobbies occupied by Rets is a definitive conclusion that’ they’re op. There couldn’t possibly be any other reasons, right? (shaking my head)
Which you haven’t brought.
And we rets should listen to your unbiased advice? Really??
This stuff is so comical that you can’t make this $#!+ up…
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Hey buddy if there was any confusion I just wanted to let you know I’m exclusively talking about arena pvp combat in 3s and solo shuffle. not raiding or mythic +
Yeah quad ret lobbies breaking the matchmaking algorithm and career 1500 rets randomly getting 2700 rated is because ret feels smoothe and fun to play!!! Definitely not OP or anything!!!
Put on the reading glasses
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So am I. From what I’ve seen and read, Hunters are killing it in PvP. And Warriors are not far behind in PvP effectiveness. And we all know about Warlocks.
Sigh, can’t make this $#!+ up.
We already know you’re mindset, mr. unbiased-toward-ret…
The changes I listed are all pretty fair and unbiased and ret would still be good after them
These changes wouldn’t affect the casual pvp ret community(including you) since you guys don’t have half these spells keybinded
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Dude, do you not understand you have no credibility here after I got you to admit your stance toward us…
Ah I see you are trying to deflect the question by quoting me stating a stereotype because you are scared to agree with me
I’ll assume you agree those are fair changes
Best of luck to you my friend you will need it.
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Nice attempt to psyche me out.
Nah, I’m just showing your obvious bias toward rets and melee with your own quotes, thus negating any points you may try to bring out.
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Lol so funny to see the trolls with no pvp xp talk. Literally no clue what they are talking about and on top of that can’t admit when their class is op… sigh. These comments make me laugh. Thanks for makin my day. Just shows how clueless low rated players are:). Who speak of things they don’t know anything of. Oh well what can you do. It’s like talking to a wall🤦🏻♂️