Rets and M+

Prot and Holy are both very good, and Ret doesn’t bring any utility that having a Paladin as the tank or healer won’t bring you.

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I can’t say for visuals, but generally the mechanics of m+ enemies and bosses are pretty well known and often times telegraphed.

Some examples: if you are in a group not skipping soggy and your healer isn’t feral, you can freedom them every other chains pull in. If you are doing spires 3rd boss and the tank gets hit with the slow attack (shows up as a debuff) right before the circles gets laid, it is useful to freedom them so they can place their circle easier. For the coldheart tormentor, you can freedom whomever is in the path of the circle beam of death so they can more easily run out (assuming you don’t skip him for some reason). Casting freedom on people during the slow on the 2nd boss of HoA is also useful for either placing the circle or helping someone get out of the way. Freedom is also useful after the knockback on the first PF boss. I cleanse a person and freedom another so more peeps can reposition more easily.

For me on my tank and my alt dps toons, it mostly comes down to just knowing the mechanics and expecting them. Most aren’t surprising and you can plan for them.


Is how one effectively uses all CDs on every class. Ret is no exception.

@Ayuki in addition to the examples @Jere gave, Nalthor the Rimebinder is an excellent place for Freedom. Pre-cast it on whoever Nalthor is targeting and you can negate the entire mechanic.

eh, it’s doable…
There is certainly stigma against rets. With recent AoE uncap, they got a little better, but so did a lot of other classes.

Their primary utility is 3% DR, blessings and self bubble.

The issue with a lot of rets in mid tier keys, such as 15’s, is that Ret paladin players do not utilize what they have at their disposal.

Straight up ran a 15 NW the other week on my bear with 2 rets.

  • Not a single HoF on last boss
  • Not a single BoP on Executioner (Power dude that charges)
  • Not a single BoP upstairs before boss 3 on fixate.

They can still pull decent ~10k’ish dps for overall. Good rets have an insane opening burst.
But at the same time, Holy Paladins are quite common. And having 2 paladins severely diminishes ret’s value to the group. No slows, no aoe stuns or interrupts, little mobility.

Sure, they can off heal, but it comes at the great DPS loss cost.


I mainly watch my healer, and tank. I use everything to help those guys out. DPS can die, especially hunters. Always save wings for the dueling boss in ToP in case you get tossed down there with a hunter.

As a tank, I put Ret’s in the same category as Ferals (and I’m a druid as my main tank, prot pally as alt tank). Good rets and ferals are put on my friends list immediately as they are amazing to have. And I don’t just mean DPS numbers. Interrupts, off heals, blessings, roots, etc.

But the gulf between good and mediocre is HUGE. But part of the problem is that when you see all these DPS tier lists out there that people worship, they focus more on DPS numbers or some buff they bring, and not all the smaller utility that specs like feral and ret bring to the table. So the mediocre players are trying to push DPS numbers to look viable and develop bad habits when it comes to being a hybrid class.

Now I’m not doing crazy high keys, but I don’t usually discriminate against Ferals or Rets when it comes to pugs.

One main problem is that ret paladins are known for low dps, and for being squishy

Another is that most dps have some particular utility that a group will hold out for – bres, hero, soothe.

I do quite a bit more dps than I sim for as ret, but what I find frustrating is that the only way I can do that is a very strict cooldown stacking schedule (where if you don’t use Final Reckoning right away it delays the use of wings)

To fix this I wish the devs would give us a bres and/or make the non-CD rotation actually do decent damage


It’s not terrible, people just get stuck on the meta. I have keystone master and the majority of my mythic plus runs are a Paladin tank, ret Paladin, ret Paladin, enhance shaman, and resto Druid. Being able to use all your abilities to their peak is important. Having those three paladins in a group nullifies several abilities from mobs and bosses.

We have a fantastic slow in hand of hindrance. I believe it’s a longer duration and greater slow than the hunters.

They do no low aoe damage, they have limited to no utility, melee, poor survivability and they gimped WoG off healing.

Ret paladins just poop damage I kind of miss the AZ trait where wings randomly popped but I have no issues with ret being in my group. Tyrannical week Kyrian rets are wild with execution sentence & final reckoning even in raids. Your best bet is to find a community who encourages you to play what you enjoy!. Meta slaves are literal doo doo water.

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“The big issue with rets, is that 90% of pug rets, do not use their blessings.” No thats just an issue with everyone. It silly to say that rets in particular dont use their utility.


My practical experience has mirrored this damage comparison.

I’m not really talking about established groups, but it will be harder to get into an established group if you are playing ret. They will much prefer holy and prot.

I passed my ret with ease on my hunter in a matter of days, vs months of agony pugging on the ret.

I’ve tried to form groups, join communities etc, people just don’t want rets in higher keys in general.

Other classes fill the roles much easier … for instance I get into keys I shouldn’t on my hunter just because the group happens to need a soothe, or a hero (or both).

Another huge problem with rets is that outside of cooldowns, the regular ret rotation does absurdly low dps. so if the tank is pulling a little oddly and a cd needs to be saved for a big pack it very badly tanks the dps

we don’t need a new legendary, or new tier set. we need a fundamental improvement to basic class abilities. my hunter can spam a 4k dmg power over and over with no cd’s. yet the ret has to go through several 1.5k dmg powers to build holy power to do a 4k damage power. it is really bad.

I agree with this, my post was directly aimed at the potential dps. Ret damage is very low overall, the CDs burst well enough but the damage falls off a cliff between CDs. I cannot honestly justify bringing a Ret when there are several other melee options that do way better damage overall. I have a Ret I dabble in keys with and it’s very frustrating.

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It’s sad because it otherwise is a popular spec. not everyone who plays ret is ready or willing to tank or heal in keys