wog is fine, but not at the expense of 3 hp.
make it 1
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Oh f*** yeah, that would be amazing
I agree with so many of your points, and as a … this is cringe to say but theres not many of us left, as a 95-100 parsing in normal raids and 84-92 parsing in heroic raids ret paladin not as good at pve as you are at pvp but I am still upper class for ret and taking away WOG for sacred shield in PVE will feel terrible, many people don’t realize rets survivability in Pve is our off healing they are to focused on pew pew zug zug to spend holy power on healing and then die, there are times (still parsing above 90s) that I get 98s and higher on heal parses while using WoG to help myself and others stay alive in moments where healers can’t heal for example Dathea heroic is Horrid on small group sizes our raids roughly 15 ppl and me off healing during her cyclone or during knockback with adds has saved our raiders lives time and time again sacred shield instead of WoG will nerf that completely, I KNOW pvp WoG is either busted or useless but in PVE it feels far better to use I would prefer we get both or just WoG personally, and while you don’t like steed (I don’t really either) I have a fix that might help as a ret only (since they specified our spec in the change notes) movement buff make our Art of War proc reduce the CD on horse if they do the aura off GCD thing that would solve some of the issues since you could aura horse and your procs take lets say 3-5 secs off CD? depending what they feel is more fair also DP being 1 min and adding sacred shield would imo give us all the defense we would need lol I literally am one of the last to die in my raid and when I do die its because of a mistake I made, as a PVE main my Divine shield is always 3.5min CD bc I take that talent 100% of the time now id like 2.5 like I had in Shadow Lands bc of conduit where taking damage reduced the CD but I doubt they would its hard to tell that being said Thank you for taking the time at all savix… I’m saying this knowing I am gonna get hate from most rets but most of our class/spec are morons… just look at our discord “shivers” and their opinions piss me off the only thing I hate is when you hate on Word of Glory since I know how good it is in PVE our class is dying we have had so many reworks and changes and so many have been bad that I look at these changes with both fear and excitement because I know this will either break our class or save it. so please blizzard if you are listening -keep Word of Glory how it is now -give us sacred shield -1min DP (reduced with the same talent as it is now to make it less than 1min if we choose) -make our horse cd reduced by 3-5 secs on art of war procs, or do what Savix said since his is not nearly as cluster trucked as mine to read LOL thanks <3 loving DF so far keep up the good work/feedback ONE SMALL ADD after the fact PLEASE give consecration a new animation… its been the same since classic yellow pee… on the ground I wouldn’t hate the ability as much if it was cool to use, half the time people can’t even tell I used it and walk out of it wasting my global and half my dmg in aoe fights 
giving us Impaler since war has charge leap/ DK has yoinks and immunity to knockbacks would be awesome LOL like even in PVE it would be so fun to just leap in like tyrael or imperious from HOTS and just yeet all over the mobs with cool animations
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I disagree with you about Final Reckoning. It is one of the more fun and unique abilities we’ve gotten in a while and it is also a way to reach targets that are at a distance. If anything it could stay as a choice at the end so if you don’t want to talent into it you don’t have to, but it shouldn’t be removed.
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Side note, you were the guy I looked up to when I started playing Ret back in WotLK.
I wasn’t in your guild, I was just on your server (Eonar? idk) but I kept looking up your character to figure out how to play mine.
Thank you for your post and your feedback.
I think the challenge for them will be to address this in the Ret tree only.
In my opinion such a rework would have been easier to execute if they had tackled the general tree at the same time.
The downside being they probably would have had to revisit both Prot and Holy which is a much larger endeavor.
This in part worries me to a certain degree since defensive’s should have been more of class tree subject than a spec tree according to the objectives they set for themselves when they introduced the trees.
Inquisition 2.0 (Didn’t like the maintenance buff either)
Same result but doubling down on burst as an identity.
As you said, doesn’t feel good to press. It always feels bad to me to see the duration go down and as I waste the first few second building back HoPo. The only solace I find is that it gives Crusade stack when I use it.
I would be prefer this to be a AW modifier where you’d get wings on a lower CD.
Hard one to comment on, Divine Purpose IS fun but… It’s slot machine gameplay.
And then we get more of this style with Empyrean Power, Boundless judgement, Art of War and Seal of Wrath.
Emphasizing random burst damage even more which is not necessarily fun and more often than not can make you steal threat although it is less of a problem than it was in SL.
Like, why not make Boundless Judgement be 100% chance to proc for 25% damage instead?
Technically the same and that would make a judgement build/cleave build way more consistent and less bursty.
Probably the most commons sense modification that we’ve been asking for years now.
May I suggest a read?
Those were ideas I was pitching for a rework of Ret aura coupled with powered up spenders.
Those may or may not be appropriate for what they intend to do but I feel like there is potential with the concept and thematic we have that is unexplored.
I’d be down for it to flat out replaces CS when an enemy falls in execute range.
That would also pair with their goal of reducing button bloat. I don’t know if they could make it as strong as you suggest if it had 2 charges but at the same time we’d be loosing additional generator so I feel like there is something to do here maybe.
PVP talent for prot Steed of Glory comes to mind.
If they are gonna borrow from D3 might as well take the whole set of glyph it has if possible. That’s be a place to start.
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I like the idea of how our execute works. Below 20% health, try and finish your opponent off. I’d love to see the animation updated. Because right now it’s like a tiny hammer Warrior’s get this really cool slash and animation.
Idea(s)
Keep the same cd, range, and have it be instant, but instead of throwing a measly hammer, you throw your weapon to try and impale your target, then leap (or charge) to your opponent smashing them to the ground with holy light
Well, we disagree and thats okay. Ultimately, I’d like to see most things that give us significant burst potential to be pruned - Final Reckoning, execution sentence, to name a few, definitely are in that category for me. Take that burst potential, put it into our consistent damage and there we go - our abilities should feel way more impactful. Wings should be our only burst imo.
I think we should be a lot like Unholy DKs. Really good consistent damage with good burst and somewhat tanky. Except where Unholy DKs can slow everything around them and are slow, I think we should be highly mobile and be able to get out of roots and snares (bring back emancipate) - if that means we lose our slow then I think that’s what should happen. And for the love of god give us an MS effect lol
In case you’re interested I believe I counted up 15 RNG related interactions within the Ret design (not all which are necessarily meta with current balancing). 3 in the class tree and 12 within the Ret tree.
Either straight up RNG or modifiers reliant on a different RNG mechanic.
I posted it earlier in the thread because I felt it relevant. I think our RNG mechanics are somewhat excessive and have been for awhile.
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Hi and mostly, thank you for really taking the time to listen to us players, customers and members of the community you created.
I would say, the paladin is almost there to be honest. There are few places of improvement that would be nice overall.
I think it’s best to go back to what is a paladin (warrior of light); A hybrid class that shines in parties. And to look at which areas is he really lacking.
Button Bloat : I seriously wouldn’t bother too much with that.
- Executioner’s Sentence is what I would remove. So many people complained about that.
- Turn Undead can be replaced with Exorcism.
Stacking modifiers : Yes a lot of stacking modifiers only means you didn’t know what to do with the class.
Savix had a great suggestion. Play around the Auras. Keep the on the GCD, but when activated, them a utility for instance :
- Crusader aura : make everyone run 15 or 20% faster for 5 seconds.
- Concentration aura : 10% increase cast speed for 5 seconds.
- Retribution aura : Activates seraphim.
- Devotion aura : the only one used in solo shuffle… 10 or 15% damage reduction for 5 seconds
- Each effects can’t be replicated for 1 minute.
- Balance it and have a top tier talent that increases buffs
Cleanse Toxins : Should really prevent poisons and diseases for 2 seconds like Savix said.
Consecration : Useless in PVP - how to fix. Make it targettable. “Final Reckoning” should be tied with consecration. So many opportunities come with this feature.
Talents that heal with consecration should heal more.
Consecrated ground = amazing. Sanctified Ground… useless good for pvp but hallowed ground will always be better.
Divine punisher: I mean when can we cast 2 consecutive judgements? Divine Toll + Judgement? Divine Toll already fills our HP.
2 biggest problems : Mobility (kiting opportunities) - We get cut like paper.
The concentration that can be targettable will help when using Consecrated Ground + Hallowed Ground. More healing on Golden path = amazing. In PVP they can run away.
We need something to spend our holy powers from distance. Maybe a 2 HP spender that hits less because otherwise, it’s just boring we can’t do anything.
Holy spenders & Hammer of Wrath must be worth it. They should do more damage.
Divine Storm should replace Radiant decree. Or vice versa. Or make Divine Storm a short distance aoe that can be increased by jurisdiciton.
Word of Glory - it’s good to have a spender that heals. Maybe make it an option between Golden Path and WoG. To avoid making our heals too strong.
Empyrean Power should not be there in the talent tree. It takes place for critical single target builds and only adds another button to press for no reason. It should be selectable when using AOE build.
Shield of Vengeance : Biggest problem of SoV is that dampening affects it. The goal for that is : “if you touch it you regret it” which goes perfectly in line with “Retribution” kind of theme. So the people who were complaining it was too powerful because they were hitting it as a single target and would not stop. Kite the damn pally during that time. Make the dampening not affect it and make the burst a bit bigger. Hug the pally at 2 - 3 players and burst the bubble or kite the pally.
Eye for an Eye : Make it that it reduces all damage by 10% and said damage is returned back to the target.
I feel like Paladins also have a place as hybrids within wow. Enablers, side healers and buffers. So they could easily have multiple specs :
- Less damage but allow partners to damage/heal more
- More damage but help partners less.
I’m actually going to build a talent tree shuffling things around… would be nice to see what I can come up with.
so I’m kinda torn on this one…on the one hand I’ve never had an issue doing well as ret, b/c it’s my main class/spec, and I literally dunk all over everyones low expectations of ret, every expac.
On the other hand, some of the stuff you mention makes sense and I’m fairly certain the guy who’s been in charge of designing the spec doesn’t even play it so…idk, I just hope they don’t butcher it by trying to make it more “mainstream”…I like my bursty holy knight that actually rewards you for mastering it, and I don’t want it to become just another “flavor of the patch” spec
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Personally I feel like Devine Purpose should be Main line as a passive Talent
also when it comes to Maneuverability simply give us 1 of the following
1st you could give us back the talent that allowed the first hit on a target with Judgement to prove a small speed buff. and if they hit another target just have it refresh the stack. or put a limit that it can proc again for 20- 30 sec.
2nd you could give a proc on judgement to reset the CD for the Devine Steed talent
( with this you can make this available for all spec or just Ret and Prot)
for someone who has main a paladin since WOTLK I feel like these could be good options and be fairly balanced.
when come to Survival, I think giving us atleast another Dmg Negate talent (main lined) could help. we already have SOV,BOP, and DS.
Possibly just give us DP main stream Talent could help this issue.
also personally would love to see us get a Holy version AMZ for a global dmg negate for groups. but this might be asking for too much XD <3
You know what I miss from way back?
Greater Blessing of Kings.
The group/raid wide blessing from a Paladin that gave a 10% bonus to all your stats for 15 mins.
Now that was a utility that every raid loved. I can remember doing Molten Core and the raid leader singing out ‘Greater Blessing please’ if I forgot about it.
We need a utility like that brought back in.
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Honestly I wouldn’t mind a true support class, and as paladin that is somewhat what I bought into about the class back in vanilla.
The problem is that the game doesn’t really cater towards that kind of design, especially now with more competitive content.
The big issue I see is that balance wise there has to be an advantage of taking a support class that buffs your allies rather than simply taking a true dps/healer etc.
For example if you assume the paladin provides 75% throughput to a specific role, then not only do they need to provide at least the other 25% through group throughput benefits, but also additional to warrant splitting that throughput in the first place.
That then brings into question if they only support a group, or if they provide benefit to the raid, which would substantially increase their contribution, and how you would balance around that.
Add ontop of that the role would really need to be a dps support, because there is no benefit of a healer support in smaller group content (assuming content is tuned to the requirement of a healer), as your throughput wouldn’t be enough, yet there are no other healers that you would be contributing towards.
The final issue is expectations, people are fond of their classes/specs, so you couldn’t really change any current designs that significantly without the potential to make many people quite upset.
It would have to really be a 4th spec for paladin rather than a new direction for a previous existing one.
It’s a decent thought experiment though, and honestly whilst probably not paladin, I would be very interested to see something to the effect added as a bard class down the line. Even if it’s something like Evoker where it has limited spec options.
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As a DK main but who also has a Paladin (first toon created, loved and cared for since vanilla) I feel like this comment is a massive misrepresentation. Yes DK can slow the world around and we have to to stay in range to do anything, but we do this at the cost of our damage output as it costs us resources meaning we cant Scourge, Fester, Oblit or whatever button you push for damage as runes are on CD using chains.
Paladins dont have this problem, yes they are slow (not the slowest) but using freedom or steed doesnt have a negative effect on your ability to escape or your damage output so i feel like you really cant compare your class the way you have.
Yes DK can grip, but grip can also fail - but this isnt a negative impact on damage.
The having to spam WoG to keep yourself up I also hate, it feels bad to spend damage output resources on trying to survive, BUT atleast WoG still feels impactful when used. Try being a DK where Deathstrike got a multiplicative nerf and even with the recent reversion of 25% still isnt worth pressing at the high resource cost.
The button bloat is a big thing for Ret. I really notice this when i switch from DK and play my Ret - My DK opener consist of 13 button (Unholy inc trinket/potion etc) but it all flows quite nicely. Playing ret sometimes feels like mayhem - there is a method but with so many buttons lighting up saying press me its easy to feel like you are playing a piano and playing it poorly.
Auras and even WoG being on GCD is just plain poor design.
Bubble is a curse for pallies - yes it can be removed but there is no negative to pressing except forbearance, I remember a time when it used to have an offset to pushing it. 8 sec full immunity but being able to do full damage during this is not good design, the dispelling argument fails as not every class can remove from you. Notwithstanding this and understanding that the spell is Iconic to the class I feel like a better design would be Divine Shield: 4 sec immunity to all damage and harmful effects and have a talent that if it is dispelled gives you a 20% dmg boost for 5 secs. This would deter people removing it (unless it was within a kill window).
I want to talk about Forbearance however, Forbearance should be personal, it shouldn’t effect you playing with a Holy paladin. Your forbearance shouldn’t lock your healer out of using abilities on you. If I use divine shield i get a personal forbearance but my holy paladin healer should be able to use Lay on Hands on me still and if they do it should apply their forbearance mark meaning they cant BoP me etc.
With regards to Divine Protection - it is a 20% wall for 8 sec on a 1.4min CD, i feel this is fine tbh. It could be bought in line with other class walls as to be 30% for 8 sec on 3 min CD with a talent to make it a 2 min CD but the offset of 10% less damage reduction but the ability to use it more feels ok. I do believe Divine Protection and SoV shouldnt be a choice talent. They should be separated and DP placed in the Paladin tree so you have the ability to have both CD’s - Kind of how DK’s can have both AMS and IBF.
I flat out hate consecrate, its just another button to push and there are so many talents to buff it but they dont feel impactful at all.
I used to love the RNG of Seal of Casino - it would be cool if that came back in an updated more modern fashion like a buff - 1 talent point - Seal of Command, 1.5min CD: Your next 2 Crusader Strikes hit twice, the secondary hit is holy damage and has a 50% chance to crit. (i was going to say always crits but 50% brings in the Casino feel from the good old days)
Anyway enough rambling for now.
Your DK brethern
Brutrus
wrath’s design was good, what they needed to do is take inspiration from that and modernize seals.
Like for example, when you use a seal, instead of it being a buff you apply, it becomes a resource bar, and you have to either expend that bar to use another seal by performing spells or abilities, or wait for the seal CD to wear off before you can use another seal.
Just to clarify, most 30% DRs are on 2 min cds with additional effects.
Icebound Fortitude - 30% DR 3 min cd, also removes and makes immune to stuns. Talented to 2 mins.
Enraged Regen - 30% DR also increases healing received from Bloodthirst 2 min cd, with talent for extra duration and 20% max HP heal.
Die by the Sword - 30% DR plus 100% parry chance 2 min cd
Astral Shift - 40% DR 2 min cd. Multiple talent interactions.
Dispersion - 75% DR + 25% heal 2 min cd. Can’t cast during.
Blur - 20% DR and 50% dodge chance. 1 min cd
Barkskin - 20% DR and prevents cast interruption. 1 cd.
You get the image.
So honestly I’d 30% on 2 min cd is around the baseline really, with 20% DRs being typically on 1 min cd with additional effects.
Divine Protection being 20% DR on 2 min base cooldown, with no additional effects is honestly pretty excessive.
Personal opinion it should just be like Holy’s version baseline, 20% DR 1 min cd no effects.
Then if they want to add a talent that say increases the DR at the expense of increasing the cd, then they can do so.
I’m not a fan of SoV and the degenerate gameplay its retaliation damage causes in PvE, so personally I wouldn’t even mind if they took that away.
Maybe if they made a similar effect on one of the modifiers to DP so you had say a choice of it also providing an absorb shield when cast possibly with increased cd (call it Sacred Shield for nostalgia?), and the other choice being the flat increased DR % with increased cd to compensate.
At least then the spell is consistent over the classes, and the difference would be understandable through talent modifiers.
Instead of just Ret getting a flat out worse ability for no reason yet saying it’s the same thing lol.
Unfortunately with 15 RNG interactions in within the spec already (a majority of which are taken) there honestly isn’t really room for more RNG.
If it’s any consolation though, I’m pretty sure Seal of Casino was literally their entire theme when they decided to rework the spec in Legion and came to the conclusion that the Ret spec thematically identifies itself as a slot machine.
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That doesn’t make Wrath’s design any good though.
It’s still just 4-5 buttons you hit your face along in a specific order when the button flashed yellow lol.
Wrath’s design was simple, but enjoyable. It flowed and it felt good to play. But that unfortunately doesn’t give any credence to the actual design though as lack of interaction, consequence, or decision making doesn’t make it anything special.
In fact technically due to seal twisting alone TBC Ret (whilst unintentionally) actually has more mechanic nuance than Wrath. (To clarify TBC is also poorly designed as the reliance on a batching/scripting issue isn’t deliberate design)
Honestly I like a lot of seal designs and I’ve posted similar things in other threads ages back, like past expansions and also before we had the details on Ret in DF.
Unfortunately I don’t think we’ll come back around to that at least any time soon.
But basically I like the idea of interactive seals, I think one of the ones I said was similar to a reverse version of yours.
In it you would basically accumulate a buff based around zealous fervour which you would then use to empower yourself for a duration which impacted how your rotation would play depending on the seal and it’s role.
Personally I think those things are still more thematic than “I hit thing but damage yellow” which is essentially what Ret is these days thematically.
There are very few interactions that I think encapsulates the whole holy defender bringing evil to justice sort of vibe, or the religious aspects of the almost fervent need to purge that which they deem unholy.
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Actually it was possible to seal twist in wrath, but you had to watch your mana.
That is why those mechanics needed to be modernized. We should had never touched combo points. We are holy warriors, not holy rogues.
Would this idea give you a choice of what seal to use? Is it a bar builder like rage or do you imagine it building differently?
This I agree, we slowly lost the feeling of holy warrior after wrath in favor of a more holy rogue kinda feel. I also feel the holy power building thing goes against our very class story where we already have light energy pulsing in our body, having to “build” points to use that energy is counter-productive to that immersion of that.
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Can someone elaborate why final reckoning is hated so much? It’s both an AoE and a single target skill that let’s you choose one or the other. What is wrong with it?