Ret pally help - optimal burst rotation w crusade?

hey guys, new ret pally here, was wondering if i could get some help on how to properly burst with crusade. for example, when i get my 5 hp, i crusade, tv, hammer, tv. at this point i have two stacks of crusade. do i wake here and tv to get my third stack, or should i wait to wake once i have my third stack of crusade? should i be saving judgment to empower my tv on my third stack of crusade? thanks for the help

TBH I wouldn’t play with Crusade now that regular wings gives you a guaranteed first TV crit. I’d make sure you have all buffs up (like inquisition and judge buff on target), 5 HP, and Judge off cd:
HoJ
Wings
TV
Judge
TV
Wake of Ashes
TV

I don’t play execution sentence, bit if I did I’d probably drop it on target before HoJ. Not 100% sure though as that let’s them know you are about to burst. Maybe you’d have to save it and use before first TV after the HoJ. It’s too many gcd’s already in that window which is why I don’t like it in the first place.

Not sure where to fit hammer in either as I don’t use it. I guess it would just take precedence over crusader strike?

Bro does this look like the self help forums? Pally forums are that way —->

oh wow i had no idea asking a question about how to do damage in arena isnt relevant to the arena forums. ill go ask the pally forum that’s full of pve players that takes hours to get a response

Actually a lot of good Pally PvP players post there. I think I saw Caperx there before, see Wreckital, saw Rethumtv I think, etc. I think some of them do play crusade still as well. I’m sure they will post here too though.

hmm, not sure if the info ive been looking at is outdated or not. ive watched a couple pretty recent skillcapped vids on ret and they recommend playing execution sentence if youre running inquisition, as well as playing crusade in comps where you’re not going to be kited as much and have good uptime. im mainly going to be playing double dps 2s as sub/ret so i would assume playing wings with execution sentence/inquisition would be better since games are going to be faster and its more about doing high burst fast

thanks for the info, but now im a lil bit confused haha

Yeah see what they say. This is just what I have found feels best to me. I think crusade is better for pure DPS over 2 minutes, but for immediate burst inquisition+regular wings is going to be highest as it’s an immediate +27% damage, 20% crit, 20% healing, +7% haste, and guaranteed first TV crit. The extra healing will also be useful as double dps.

As opposed to crusade where it will take you at least 10 seconds to get to +30% damage and +30% haste. You do get an extra 5 seconds though.

You’re going to get a lot of worthless advice from bad paladins. Paladin forums is a cesspit of morons - the good advice is there but you have to sift through all the mud to find it.

Back when I used to post there regularly all I’d do is argue with people who had no idea what they were talking about.

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mash face against keyboard, do biggest damage in game.

So I thought Id answer a few of your questions briefly. First tier all the traits are very close. Righteous verdict and Execution Sentance have been nerfed in pvp zeal has not. I mostly take ES as it brings more ranged damage. I tend to avoid rigtheous verdict since its been nerfed and when your kited it falls off pretty easily or if you divine storm its just a wasted talent. Again this entire row is all very close in terms of damage this is strictly for pvp. Es in my opionon pulls out ahead as the ranged damage is good and it increases your damage in short goes.

Now as far as crusade vs inquisition it completly depends on the comp your running and comp your fighting. Crusade is more burst during wings, inquisition is more consistent sustain/pressure. If you can only win in burst goes Id run crusade. For example when I q cupid and I fight a destro I run crusade. Destros not easily kiteable and you wanna kill them on your burst goes and pillar. Inquisition is good if you wanna have consistent pressure or if your way to win vs a certain comp is to oom them. Crusades also not good if your going to be consistently kited on it. Vs hpals/mages I tend to run inquisition. In 2s I tend to run crusade more often as deep dampening crusade wrecks. Theirs a lot more reasons and pros/cons for each.

Ok so when stacking crusade your not always going to get a ideal scenario. But Your goal is to get to max stacks as soon as possible for longer burst windows. You want to start at 5 holy power then it comes down to a priority system and it depends on talents that your running. It’s situational but I tend not to save wake for max stacks if its up because the burst of it got lowered in pvp and its 5 gaurenteed holypower which = faster stacks which = more overall burst in your burst window. Now this isnt always the case depending the situation I’d Es into wake with crusade up. Depends on hp of enemy what defensives they have etc

With crusade theirs a priority sytem so if your goals to min max Id recommend this order for sustain burst. Tv @5 holy power, Blade , Judgment, Crusader strike, Execution Sentance should be used before Tv if your speced it. Emperyean power procs should be used right away in most scenarios. If your playing hammer of wrath. Hammer of wrath goes before blade of justice.

It’s hard for me to describe in writing so if you want me to elaborate or explain better. Or if your just looking for a ret streamer. I reccomend you follow my stream twitch.tv/judgejudyx . Feel free to pop in and ask questions, I can also explain situationally when to do what better and why. I’m better at speaking then writing.

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The difference in a good ret and a bad ret is how they use their utilities for their partners. No class’s damage rotation is hard any more. But as ret, your proper use of bop, hoj (in your setup comps), sanc, etc. are the difference in you winning and losing games. Having played a lot of Cupid over the last 6 or so years, I can definitely tell good rets from bad rets on the situational use of those abilities alone. Your role is a lot broader in terms of support and coordination with your team than stuff like dk/ww/dh/warrior. Especially now that everything is dumbed down, it’s harder to play ret well than those imho.

Most of what Caperx already said is good. Use Emperian free procs with Crusade as soon as possible, it’s a great way to get 3 stacks for free when you use it. In most cases I don’t wait for 5 stacks to start Crusade, 3 stacks of HP is the optimal way to start max dps in PvE and you’re essentially losing effective dps by keeping cooldowns up and not using them as soon as possible (wake of ashes, more judgements faster, BoJ procs because of extra haste.)

  • Blades of justice -> Judgement -> Wings -> Templar’s / Executioner Sentence -> Wake of Ashes -> TV -> Blades/Judgement -> TV repeat.

I personally prefer Zeal in most situations as the damage bonus keeps it’s stacks for a while, and Righteous Verdict / Executioner Sentence can drop off and feel wasted if you get kited a lot.

With Crusade I generally believe Lawbringer PvP talent is a must. I try to keep the debuff on at least 2 targets all game, all targets 3 when possible to get maximum spread pressure during Crusade’s haste bonus. More judgments = more 5-10-15% max hp shred per judgment to the their team.

Mini wings is always a decent pick as well. It gets a bit more effectiveness as a burst tool with Inquisition since you will get the auto crit out of it as well. I often use it with Crusade to stack periods of 12 seconds + 30 seconds together and get either a kill or defensives used up for a next go.

in pve its more optimal to start at 3 your correct the main reason being is you Tv wake as soon as you crusade which isnt ideal in pvp as your not always crusading after 2 globals. In pvp 5 is better usually. Your not sitting their hitting a target dummy so its just not as optimal. That doesnt mean youl always start at 5. Its all situational. PVP you have to play around your timings so u default to the priority system. Theirs also a difference between pve sustain damage and effective pvp damage. But hard to explain in writing I could explain it to you on discord rethum. Nothing wrong with different opionons I like dicussing ret with others.

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Yeah you are not wrong. Effective damage > maxing PvE style damage. Definately want to be able to do as much damage as possible in a tighter window, preferably when the healer is in CC and not free casting heals, or when the target is out of peels + mobility to force defensives or net a kill.

I think with Crusade as opposed to Divine Purpose / Inquisition I’ve personally always looked at it as: getting to 10 stacks = ramp up time. During the ramp up you’re applying pressure and in a good situation to CC the healer, ideally in a good spot to HoJ or Rep tje healer at max stacks and burn the target.

If the kill target happens to be the healer instead of DPS save HoJ to either start the chain with decent stacks on Crusade and follow up with a well timed kicked, or land a solid kick and HoJ the healer on his next cast to force trinket. Either way works but like you said, every situation will be different and will rely on situational awareness to make a good play.

Do you guys change your secondary stats depending on crusade or Inquisition build

Pretty much any combo of haste/mastery/Vers will be fine. Stack at least 15% haste and just stack as much mastery and vers as you can find.

If you have enough pieces make 2 sets, make one with mastery/haste for max dps burst, and another with Vers/haste for improved tankiness against burst comps like Destro/X or RMX

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rethum is 100% correct that is the optimal stat prio for pvp. I raid so I cant gem /enchant mastery atm qq.

Thx guys! I can push around 45% mastery and still be above 15% haste. The joy of being jc I can swap all my gems.

Dang nice, 45% mastery is baller status. I look forward to the inevitable forum post of someone crying when you get a crit for 90-100k on them :joy::joy:

The rng god blessed me with 6 pieces with socket lol. I wish I could crit for 90k the max I saw was around 60k -70k hahaha